Gar Veteran Member Posts:1676  
| 5/16/2006 1:54 PM |
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After reading Aidan Curran's review of the new Josh Ritter album ( http://www.cluas.com/music/albums/j...-years.htm), I couldn't help but feel a little disgruntled about the adopted tactic of many Irish music-lovers of using and then abusing certain acts that flock to this island on a regular basis.
When Chris Rea, David Gray or Josh Ritter first started playing gigs here, crowds flocked to the gigs to show their warm Irish appreciation for a foreign act - as if to say 'Play in Ireland more often as we value your talent'. Although, as soon as the mainstream radio starts to play their songs or RTE loop their biggest hits into numerous ad's, nobody seems interested anymore. If it is a case of the act in question milking the Irish audience by coming over for two tours per year (which many do), then why do acts like Alice Cooper, Ted Nugent and Iron Maiden still sell out gigs in our biggest venues even though they are not touring a new record? Is this a case of the Irish bandwagon taking a regular turn-off down nostalgia lane?
Why do we mock other music fans whenever they suddenly become interested in these acts? Josh Ritter is selling out Vicar Street but many people who previously squashed into Whelan's to see him play are looking down at the people who go to his most recent gigs. The same is happening with Rodrigo y Gabriela. They were taken in with open arms at the start but when they played Oxegen and released a media-hyped new album, many didn't want to know. Evidently they are running away with the 'Best of Show 2' poll over on the Later with Jools Holland website for their live performance last week.
The same happens with Irish acts too. Think of Declan O'Rourke, The Frames and now Republic Of Loose. Is it a case of when we judge you getting too big for your own boots then there's no room left in the bandwagon for you? Does this mean that Duke Special, Julie Feeney and Director are next on the hitlist to be snubbed and looked down at? |
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alameda Basic Member Posts:121
| 5/16/2006 2:18 PM |
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I think sometimes it's down to the music becoming more comfortable and less challenging and appealing less to the people who initially went to their gigs
The Frames would be a case in point here, loved their first couple of albums but it all became a bit safe and unadventurous after that
(still doesn't warrant the wanton Frames and Hansard bashing that goes on)
But it's also about certain Irish acts no longer being considered cool once their songs are being played on daytime radio
Republic of Loose have their detractors alright but they seem to be weathering the storm thus far - they may be the one to buck the trend, here's hoping
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klootfan Advanced Member Posts:851
| 5/16/2006 2:20 PM |
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Good post Gar. However, id have to put my hand up and admit to being an offender on this topic.
There are a number of issues here.
1) Irish music-lovers of using and then abusing certain acts
I actually think that in alot of cases the reverse is true. Its the irish gig goer who is being used and abused. People pay into these gigs and not at reduced prices. So when after a band has become successful on the back of receiving support from irish fans, and then goes along to double their ticket prices and tshirt prices just because they are now "mainstream", thats a smack in the face. Expecially when they are touring with the same album
2) For me, i enjoy intimate gigs. up to venues about the size of vicar st.. after that i cant say that the experience for me is the same. The olympia can be special depending on the band and so can oxegen. But other then that, its a very impersonal experience when you have been used to more personal settings. Frames as a case in point, ive cant remember the number of times ive seen em live. But now i reckon i havent seen em since marley park. Why, well, i dont particularily think any of the gis now could beat some of the great gigs and venues ive seen em in, plus i dont particularily like their new music. I think its pretty poor actually. Plus, you can only listen to those stories so many times :) .
3) I do think that once irish bands and others become successful they spend more money on production and searching for that sound and that also in my opinion takes from the music, if you are looking for that raw production effect.. david kitt, snow patrol cases in point.
I dont personally think it is the snobbery effect. I still listen to the music from these acts, i just dont particulariy enjoy the gigs as much anymore...plus, for me anyway, there is a limit to how many times you can see some bands live, no matter how much of a fan you are, before it becomes stale.
Thats my 0.2c anyway
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palaceBasic Member Posts:392
| 5/16/2006 3:05 PM |
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kinda with klootfan on this, points 2 & 3 anyway
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PilchardAdvanced Member Posts:699
| 5/16/2006 4:22 PM |
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what a terrible review. i knew there was a reason why i stuck to the cluas messageboard and there it is. awful snobby, badly-written, lazy, cliched review. i'm not a fan of josh ritter but the new album is very good indeed. to compare it to david gray shows up the reviewer's prejudices and small-mindedness (not to mention bias) more than anything else
am with gar on his points - we do hate it when our friends become famous or ab fab. indie begrudgery is alive and wel.
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kavobagginsBasic Member Posts:199
| 5/16/2006 4:43 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Pilchard
[am with gar on his points - we do hate it when our friends become famous or ab fab. indie begrudgery is alive and wel.
Is that not an Irish trait though?
kinda like the old saying where in the states, people see someone become successful and say "someday Im gonna be like him", in Ireland we say "someday Im gonna f**king get him!". |
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UnaVeteran Member Posts:1721
| 5/16/2006 5:15 PM |
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I think it's because a lot of acts get very boring after a few records. Simple as. Many artists simply have the idea that if their first record or really well received by a few people, they'll keep making music like it until it reaches a wider appeal. Others just don't have the creativity or imagination or talent to develop and explore their music, and eventually, it just becomes mundane. If a band has been around for ages (even if Today FM have only started playing their music recently) and they're doing the same old s**t, obviously people are going to think 'give over'.
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UnicronVeteran Member Posts:1696
| 5/16/2006 5:30 PM |
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I think Una hit the nail on the head there.
For me the case of Rodrigo y Gabriela is a perfect example of that. I've seen them live a few times, was initially hugely impressed but each subsequent time I saw them I got more and more bored with their schtick. It just got old, I haven't even bothered to get the new record.
And the third David Kitt record was just plain bad.
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Protein biscuitBasic Member Posts:364
| 5/16/2006 5:49 PM |
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I haven't heard the album in question so can't comment on it. My first experience of Josh Ritter was on No Disco when they played "Me & Jigs" and i thought it was a great song. Went out and bought the album and liked it a lot. Then, saw him live a few years ago in Vicar St. and it was an excellent gig. However, i've grown out of him since then. Maybe, on the subject of Bandwagonism, it's the listener that outgrows the artist? Initially the "freshness" of the artist's sound appeals, a journey begins and like all journeys leads somewhere completely different from the starting point? Good post Gar and i think a sub-committee would need to be formed to get any sort of insight into this particualr topic. Snobbishness does come into it but is not the alpha-cause.
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BinokularVeteran Member Posts:1665
| 5/16/2006 6:28 PM |
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I also went to a few early Josh Ritter gigs in Cork. First saw him supporting the Frames, thought he was a good performer, very charismatic. Definitely enjoyed those gigs, the problem is he tended to rely on the same old wide-eyed schtick. After a few gigs, I got bored and lost interest, it got to the stage where gigs were as predictable as a Vegas residency. Ironically a couple of people I dragged along to those gigs are now hardcore fans, so I don't really feel guilty about losing interest. I just have a short attention span.
He's written a couple of good songs, but the criticism about his songwriting being word heavy and music-lite I think is a valid one, even if the review was a bit harsh.
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GarretBasic Member Posts:244
| 5/16/2006 7:42 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Pilchard
what a terrible review. i knew there was a reason why i stuck to the cluas messageboard and there it is.
you stick to the message board because other people write reviews that you deem to be "terrible". Surely what you should do is not bitch about it on the forum and instead get of your arse and write an alternate review.
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deraBasic Member Posts:163
| 5/16/2006 8:05 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Gar
The same happens with Irish acts too. Think of Declan O'Rourke, The Frames and now Republic Of Loose. Is it a case of when we judge you getting too big for your own boots then there's no room left in the bandwagon for you?
I imagine most of the people who despise Declan O'Rourke and Republic of Loose do so regardless of record sales.
The Frames I see as a confusing category somewhat of their own, with their sometimes promising, sometimes depressingly awful output. |
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PilchardAdvanced Member Posts:699
| 5/16/2006 8:31 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Garret
quote:
Originally posted by Pilchard
what a terrible review. i knew there was a reason why i stuck to the cluas messageboard and there it is.
you stick to the message board because other people write reviews that you deem to be "terrible". Surely what you should do is not bitch about it on the forum and instead get of your arse and write an alternate review.
no interest in writing reviews. lots of interest in reading them though, if they're halfway well written. thats why i stick to writers like john meagher, kitty empire, jim carroll and alexis petridis. |
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| 5/17/2006 3:16 PM |
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Glad someone pulled the reviewer up on this review of Josh Ritter. Although I don't think this album is as good as his "first" Golden Age of Radio, it is a good album, more deserving of a 6 or 7 out of 10. And the last thing he can be accused of is not having tunes.
Never saw him live, but comparisons to early David Gray are praise, (A Century Ends is still a great album), though unfair to compare him to Mr. Rea.
There seems to be a bias against singer/sognwriters on this site (no s**t sherlock!!). This is so narrow minded. Though the latest tendy band can sometimes produce a classic album that lasts(Stone Roses, Radiohead (before ok Computer), Go Bewteens, Strokes,Primal Scream, Talk Talk, Toasted Heritic)most loose their appeal over time.
Though I currently love the Artic Monkeys album, I wonder will I be listening to it in 15 years time or will it go the way of many albums that sounded great at the time but now when you listen to them you wonder why you thought the album was so great. (White Stripes your time is up!!!).
I find this happens less with singer/sognwriters, I still love Nick Drake, Gray's A Century Ends, Ritter's Golden Age of Radio, the first two Kitt ablums (the third was crap).
I have been buying and listening to music for nearly 25 years (yes I am old) and I find now I only invest time on music I think I will still want to listen to in 5 years time. And does inlcude "For the Birds".
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palaceBasic Member Posts:392
| 5/17/2006 3:33 PM |
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miwadi - i applaud you...
i have just been struggling with this very dilemma myself so it is relevant to me... i too am of the slightly older variety but have bought more albums over the last year than any year previous... they're all good (in fact, most great) but i know that more than half of them won't interest me in a few years... so i'm trying to pare back my addiction... it's difficult though
..."for the birds" for me is (and will) standing my own gauge for the 'test of time'
...anyway, sidetracked perhaps
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John DoeBasic Member Posts:338
| 5/17/2006 4:25 PM |
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Anyone who dislikes a band simply because they've become successful and aren't playing garage gigs anymore is a twat. Every band wants to be successful and play bigger venues despite all the cooler than thou indie nonsense. Being big doesn't necessarily mean becoming stale and "safe" either. Look at U2 and Radiohead. At the height of their success U2 released Achtung Baby and Pop, both albums radically different to what they'd done before. Radiohead's Kid A was regarded as career suicide when it came out first and although I've become a bit fed up with their subsequent albums, Kid A was still an extraordinarily brave move to make.
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UnicronVeteran Member Posts:1696
| 5/17/2006 5:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by miwadi
There seems to be a bias against singer/sognwriters on this site (no s**t sherlock!!).
Just "Irish" singer-songwriters. |
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BinokularVeteran Member Posts:1665
| 5/17/2006 6:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by miwadi
There seems to be a bias against singer/sognwriters on this site (no s**t sherlock!!). This is so narrow minded. Though the latest tendy band can sometimes produce a classic album that lasts(Stone Roses, Radiohead (before ok Computer), Go Bewteens, Strokes,Primal Scream, Talk Talk, Toasted Heritic)most loose their appeal over time.
Though I currently love the Artic Monkeys album, I wonder will I be listening to it in 15 years time or will it go the way of many albums that sounded great at the time but now when you listen to them you wonder why you thought the album was so great. (White Stripes your time is up!!!).
I find this happens less with singer/sognwriters, I still love Nick Drake, Gray's A Century Ends, Ritter's Golden Age of Radio, the first two Kitt ablums (the third was crap).
So why after defending "singer songwriters" (comic book guy from simpsons voice: most meaningless genre label..ever) do we launch into a tirade against "trendy bands". People talk about "now" bands on the boards a lot, because they're "now" bands, but have you read any of the other reviews? It's not all "now" bands. The current batch of reviews ranges from so-hip-you-haven't heard-them-yet to career retrospectives to dead composers (had to plug my own). I'll leave it to you to decide if these reviews are any good, but at least we manage to cover a reasonably wide range of stuff. Not all of us are convinced by that articulated primates beat combo all the "kids" are listening to nowadays either. 
As for singer songwriters producing albums that outlast everything else, speak for yourself. I've seen as many come and go as any other genre. The fact you're still listening to them means that "singer songwriter" stuff is what you prefer, (nothing wrong with that by the way).
Anyway, the world would be a dull place without a certain amount of disposable tunes |
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PunchbowlBasic Member Posts:205
| 5/17/2006 7:05 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Unicron
I think Una hit the nail on the head there.
For me the case of Rodrigo y Gabriela is a perfect example of that. I've seen them live a few times, was initially hugely impressed but each subsequent time I saw them I got more and more bored with their schtick. It just got old, I haven't even bothered to get the new record.
And the third David Kitt record was just plain bad.
Well, I disagree with the above. Going by Unas response, that bands run out of ideas by their third album, I would think that Dave Kitt is an EXCEPTION to this rule rather than an example of it. Whatever about the quality of Square One (It's really good btw) it certainly is a distinct direction change for Kitt. As was his fourth album and indeed, juding by what I've heard, his forthcoming one... I think the reason though for the likes Josh and Gray, and all the boys waning popularity with the cultural and cynical is the fact that very often fads come along and blind peoples taste buds. Rodrigo y Gabriela were ALWAYS boring.
(Josh Ritter was always over earnest btw, a charming and iniatally endearing trait, but soon becomes grating)
ANyway, I might edit this tomorrow as I'm literally falling asleep as I write... |
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stephenBasic Member Posts:201
| 5/17/2006 7:51 PM |
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So CLUAS is the new NME, eh?
I've been in London this past few years so I can look over the water and attempt to do so with impartiality.
Many of the artists described in this thread are deserving of the criticism directed at them. Irish music buyers have recently developed an unusual tendency to deify acts from other countries - David Gray and Josh Ritter do share similarities. Everyone knows that the Irish love someone who can carry a tune...
David Kitt? I saw him play a University in London a few years ago. He seemed very happy with his lot. He didn't strike me as having the ambition to want to go for it. Republic of Loose certainly do have the ambition - I remember reading some cracking reviews of their debut over here. But that was the only publicity I saw. Their second album is but a pale shadow of the first. I predict an acrimonious breakup...
Rodrigo and Gabriela absolutely stole the show on Jools Holland last weekend. But isn't their music admirable rather than lovable? I suspect this is why some readers don't find themselves compelled to buy their new release.
Anyway, isn't it part of the fun to build a band up and then see if they fly or die? I suspect that none of the acts on this thread will make it into the bigtime. Is it a question of lack of talent or lack of ambition?
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