jmc105 Basic Member Posts:188  
| 3/24/2005 5:07 PM |
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given the wide range of musical tastes represented on the forum, this might not be the most successful attempt to start a discussion in the history of cluas.com, but...
who do you consider to be the best irish songwriter at the moment? declan o'rourke? paul tiernan? damien 'whisper his name softly around here' rice? ronan keating?
on another unrelated topic, (which is not to be interpreted by any moderator/adminstrator as being directed personally at them...  )
if there is a fear that the 'email member' function may be abused (even though it apparently hasn't happened...), why not add a 'private message' function instead? any problems with abusive private messages (and again, there is no reason to suspect such a thing would happen) could be dealt with by those operating the forum much more easily and directly than bringing a complaint to email providers and hoping that they will do something about it. also, with private messages, you can be sure that the intended recipient will actually see the message the next time they log in. with emails there is room for confusion, in that there is no way of knowing whether or not a member has received the message - which, in the event of a failure to reply, could, tragically, be mis-interpreted as a monty python-esque attempt to 'run away, run away!'. as i said, it might put some minds at ease knowing that all cluas.com forum users would be protected by the fine admin folks operating the forum in the unprecedented event of abusive messages from other members. just a thought.  |
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Daragh Advanced Member Posts:666
| 3/24/2005 5:15 PM |
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Van Morrison? may not have done much work of note lately but he's still active and he did give us "Astral Weeks" ... amazing!
and Moondance, also like one of his recent ones cant remember the name at the moment though
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Rev Jules Veteran Member Posts:1041
| 3/24/2005 5:56 PM |
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Although I defer to the more technologically adept members of cluas on this, I don't see the need for a 'private messages' function. It sounds a bit intrusive, people have a right to their personal privacy when emailing, and it also adds an additional responsibilty on moderators to moderate the private messages as well as the public boards. As for whether people get their emails or not, or choose to reply to them or not, thats their own business too. Hey, if someone went up to person in a nightclub and kept on trying to talk to them when they indicated they would rather not do so, thats just being obnoxious in my book.
'Nuff said. Now, onto the actual topic of who is the greatest Irish songwriter, I would discount people whose work has not been covered by other artists or which has not entered the popular repertoire. On that basis, my two cents are:
Mick Hanly, Percy French, Pete St John, U2 and Shane McGowan.
With regard to Ronan Keating, of the examples you gave above, he is the only songwriter who has truly proved himself on the International stage. He has an Ivor Novello to his name and his co-write with Paul Brady 'The Long Goodbye' not only was a US No 1 for Brooks and Dunn but also won an award in Nashville.
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jmc105Basic Member Posts:188
| 3/24/2005 6:12 PM |
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that nightclub scenario sounds fair traumatising alright, specially if your big brother isn't around to hold your hand. of course, if that hypothetical person in that hypothetical nightclub had said 'hey, c'mere, let's talk about this over here', and then proceeded to put their hands over their ears, close their eyes, and go 'lalalalalalalalaican'thearyoulalalalalalala' until the other person went away, you might use other adjectives to describe their behaviour. like: pathetic. hypothetically speaking, of course.
don't see how an on-site messaging function is more intrusive than an email arriving in your inbox. and the mods wouldn't have to oversee anything - it'd just give them more control over members of the forum who try to abuse other members in the event of a legitimate complaint.
daragh van morrison is certainly a worthy contender. i'm terrible at picking favourites, myself, keep changing my mind with my mood.
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Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 3/24/2005 6:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jmc105
that nightclub scenario sounds fair traumatising alright, specially if your big brother isn't around to hold your hand. of course, if that hypothetical person in that hypothetical nightclub had said 'hey, c'mere, let's talk about this over here', and then proceeded to put their hands over their ears, close their eyes, and go 'lalalalalalalalaican'thearyoulalalalalalala' until the other person went away, you might use other adjectives to describe their behaviour. like: pathetic. hypothetically speaking, of course.
don't see how an on-site messaging function is more intrusive than an email arriving in your inbox. and the mods wouldn't have to oversee anything - it'd just give them more control over members of the forum who try to abuse other members in the event of a legitimate complaint.
Whatever |
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jmc105Basic Member Posts:188
| 3/24/2005 6:19 PM |
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now you're just showing off. did you make a big 'W' with your fingers too?
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DaraghAdvanced Member Posts:666
| 3/24/2005 6:25 PM |
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hmm Ronan Keating, must say i am NOT a fan, but fair play to him (grudgingly and with a shrug of the shoulders)
definitely Shane McGowan too, for "Thousands are Sailing" alone, pure poetry
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jmc105Basic Member Posts:188
| 3/24/2005 6:28 PM |
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have to agree about ronan keating. awards and chart success don't equate with greatness as a songwriter.
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Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 3/24/2005 6:30 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jmc105
did you make a big 'W' with your fingers too?
No, I made a V instead
Anyway, back to the actual topic in hand (again). Morrison is certainly a wonderful songwriter and I would encourage anyone to hear his recent collaboration with Bap Kennedy entitled 'Milky Way'. He also shows off his blues chops in a film made by Mike Figgis for the 'Martin Scorsese Attempts to Win an Oscar for Best Documentary Series About The Blues' which, seriously, is a fine series although don't watch Marty's own episode after watching his voice over turn in Sharks Tale because it will suddenly become rather ridiculous.
Paul Brady is another songwriter who has created some fine songs and whose 'Steel Claw' paid for his house after it was covered by Tina Turner on her Private Dancer album. |
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jmc105Basic Member Posts:188
| 3/24/2005 6:32 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Rev Jules
quote:
Originally posted by jmc105
did you make a big 'W' with your fingers too?
No, I made a V instead
ha! clever, and almost quick too. |
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aidanAdvanced Member Posts:638
| 3/24/2005 7:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jmc105
quote:
Originally posted by Rev Jules
quote:
Originally posted by jmc105
did you make a big 'W' with your fingers too?
No, I made a V instead
ha! clever, and almost quick too.
ah, shut up, the pair of you!!! 
as you may have seen in my opinion piece, I don't believe that ANY irish songwriters have consistently reached the standard of 'great songwriter'. U2, van, shane mcgowan have sporadically written great songs but certainly not lennon-mccartney / bacharach-david / cole porter level. THAT'S the level that has to be reached and aspired to, and no irish songwriters have ever come close... unless we use UEFA parentage rules and count elvis costello
as much as I think ronan keating is ridiculous, jules has a fair point. great songwriting CAN be measured in popular success; again, the beatles and bacharach-david show that the catchiest tunes become the blandest elevator music, the air whistled by most postmen, the most covered/murdered songs by pub acts... if a song is really brilliant then lots of people will buy it.
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Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 3/24/2005 7:27 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by aidan
as you may have seen in my opinion piece, I don't believe that ANY irish songwriters have consistently reached the standard of 'great songwriter'. U2, van, shane mcgowan have sporadically written great songs but certainly not lennon-mccartney / bacharach-david / cole porter level. THAT'S the level that has to be reached and aspired to, and no irish songwriters have ever come close... unless we use UEFA parentage rules and count elvis costello
as much as I think ronan keating is ridiculous, jules has a fair point. great songwriting CAN be measured in popular success; again, the beatles and bacharach-david show that the catchiest tunes become the blandest elevator music, the air whistled by most postmen, the most covered/murdered songs by pub acts... if a song is really brilliant then lots of people will buy it.
Thats right Aidan, thats right. All true. Which leads me onto your fine point of UEFA parentage rules, does that mean that some of the best songwriters in the world had Irish parentage ? In other words, did we export our greatest talent during the 'diaspora' (I can hear Mary Robinson already) |
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UnicronVeteran Member Posts:1696
| 3/24/2005 8:04 PM |
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Noel Gallagher in Goal
A back four with Lennon and McCartney at the heart of the defence with the 2 Buckley boys as full backs.
In midfield we've got Elvis Costello holding the whole team together alongside the temprimental genius of Tom Waits. Morrissey faffes about on the left wing while on the other side there is the gifted but injury prone Shane Mcgowen.
Up front there's um ...
Bored with this now, and not all of those mentioned are great song writers.
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Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 3/24/2005 11:05 PM |
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By the way, for those of you who would like to read Aidan's excellent Op Ed (which formed the basis of a major colour article subsequently in the Irish Indo and which was quoted at length in the piece with due credit)
http://www.cluas.com/opinion/great_irish_musicians.htm
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strollerAdvanced Member Posts:576
| 3/25/2005 12:05 AM |
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I've just read Aidan’s piece and while I agree with many of his points I'm not entirely convinced by the main thrust of his argument. I don't really see how Joni Mitchell is any more innovative or influential than Van Morrison. After all Jimi Hendrix, Patti Smith and Jim Morrison all saw fit to cover Gloria, a song Van wrote while still in his teens. And it's not just in Ireland that Astral Weeks is regarded as a classic record.
Also the assumption that "no young band at the moment wants to sound like U2" seems a bit misjudged when you listen to bands like The Departure, The Editors and even Bloc Party. When the critics are discussing the new wave of 80's influenced guitar bands they seem to limit their comparisons to the likes of Gang of Four, PIL and Joy Division. But The ghosts of less fashionable luminaries such as Echo & The Bunnymen, The Cure and pre-Joshua Tree U2 continue to loom ominously over the current music scene.
Finally if "Irish acts aren’t creating scenes, sounds or movements" how come so many post rock bands cite My Bloody Valentine as a major influence? If Kevin Shields can't be described as an innovator then I don't know who can.
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roseanne barrs armpit New Member Posts:40
| 3/25/2005 2:13 AM |
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whar about christy dignam. hes a deadly songriter
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space cheeksBasic Member Posts:129
| 3/25/2005 9:16 AM |
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a few that spring to mind are Joe and Steve Wall(The Walls/ The Stunning) and Emmet tinley (prayerboat)
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aidanAdvanced Member Posts:638
| 3/25/2005 10:03 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by stroller
I've just read Aidan’s piece and while I agree with many of his points I'm not entirely convinced by the main thrust of his argument.
paul mccartney qualifies for ireland under the granny rule (and a real granny, not like granny cascarino or granny aldridge!!!); stick him upfront!
stoller, thanks for the feedback: on the original discussion thread re: that op-ed I replied to points similar to those you made, so rather than repeating myself and boring everybody, you may want to click on the link to the discussion thread at the end of that article if you haven't done so already. (by the way, I think joni mitchell is vastly underrated; wonderful poet, ten times better than the over-rated dylan, hugely influential on female and male singer-songers. I don't rate dylan at all - but I think I'll start a new thread on that one....)
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UnicronVeteran Member Posts:1696
| 3/25/2005 11:27 AM |
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Macca is partnering his old buddy John at centre back. Maybe Lennon's 2 kids. The team is shaping up like a songwriting Chelsea, solid at the back, very gifted in midfield but with very little cutting edge up front.
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WickerBasic Member Posts:185
| 3/25/2005 11:27 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by aidan
quote:
Originally posted by stroller
I've just read Aidan’s piece and while I agree with many of his points I'm not entirely convinced by the main thrust of his argument.
paul mccartney qualifies for ireland under the granny rule (and a real granny, not like granny cascarino or granny aldridge!!!); stick him upfront!
stoller, thanks for the feedback: on the original discussion thread re: that op-ed I replied to points similar to those you made, so rather than repeating myself and boring everybody, you may want to click on the link to the discussion thread at the end of that article if you haven't done so already. (by the way, I think joni mitchell is vastly underrated; wonderful poet, ten times better than the over-rated dylan, hugely influential on female and male singer-songers. I don't rate dylan at all - but I think I'll start a new thread on that one....)
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks Dylan is greatly overrated.
Mitchell had similar lyrical skills as Dylan but could create melodies that he couldn't get even close to...
Songrwiting is a nice marriage of the two in my book |
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