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Last Post 8/27/2004 5:10 PM by  Rev Jules
JACK WHITE MESSES UP LORETTA LYNN
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Rev Jules
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8/27/2004 5:10 PM
    Well, it looks like the bloom is finally coming off Jack White's rose as the RIAA releases figures which show that Loretta Lynn's latest album 'Van Lear Rose'(produced by Jack White) has been one of the worst received country records of 2004, selling a lousy 215,000 units since its release on April 27 2004. Touted by all the old farts, insert the name of your favourite 'hip' disc jockey here, as a "career best", it still sounded like the mewling of the neighbour's cat as recorded in a toilet with an eight year old dictaphone. On the other hand, newcomer Gretchen Wilson's debut 'Here For The Party' has sold a staggering 1.4 million copies since its release on May 11th 2004. But then, Wilson bothered to work with people who actually knew what they were doing. Maybe its time Lynn went back to working with real musicians.
    Binokular
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    8/28/2004 12:03 PM
    First off, I'll start by admitting I haven't heard this allbum so I am not standing up in its defence. However I've gotta take exception to your logic in this post. First off commercial success is irrelevant to the artistic merit of a record, though I think you will freely admit that. Come on, even as a die hard country fan, you've gotta admit, that like any genre, most of Nashvilles output is mediocre comercial drivel. Yes this album is probably a bit over hyped too, thanks to the Jack White involvement and all the critics jumping on the bandwagon. Even the normally harsh pitchforkmedia.com gave it a glowing review. I think you are also confusing the term "muscian" with those of "producer" and "songwriter". Jack White is a great musician, whether you love or hate the White Stripes, there is no doubt that the man can play guitar. However as a producer or even as a songwriter, Jack White might just fall short for the job at hand. He is pretty good at these things when recording as part of the White Stripes, however the problem is that The White Stripes have a very strict and specific aesthetic. One can't imagine the stripes ever "going digital" for example. This aesthetic works well for them, but the problem may be when you try to carry some of your own aesthetic over to another artist to whom it may not be suited. This is why bands have to sometimes shop around before finding a producer who suits them. You can hardly fault Jack Whites intentions though, he does seem to be a genuine fan and admirer of Loretta Lynn and had a genuine desire to work with her. Maybe this didn't give him the objectivity that he needed? Also, I'm pretty sure that Loretta Lynn was smart enough to know what she was getting into, she chose the get into this project of her own free will, though of course it may have been just to get rid of a pestering fanboy. Anyway, thats just my two cents. Bear in mind that my only real knowledge of Loretta Lynns mysic is the song "Fist City", which cracks me up every time I listen to it. (probably saciledge to say that!)
    Rev Jules
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    8/28/2004 4:10 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Binokular
    First off, I'll start by admitting I haven't heard this allbum so I am not standing up in its defence. However I've gotta take exception to your logic in this post.
    Oh goody, a real discussion about music instead of yet another (I am as big a culprit as anyone) 'lists' topic As a die hard country fan my point is exactly, yes, there is a certain amount of mediocre commercial drivel in country music and a prime example of that is 'Van Lear Rose'. This record was seen from the outset as a commercial release for Lynn, as is all country music, so I don't think its commercial performance is irrelevant. Lynn wanted to both get back into the Billboard Charts and to find a new, younger, hip audience/market. She calculated that Jack White's present 'heat' would be of great help in that aim. By the way, no other musical practitioners are as committed to the 'cash is king' ethos as the good citizens of Music Row and yet it is a musical genre which has many actual musicians in its corporate executive ranks eg: Tony Brown, Chet Atkins. If you remember, Columbia Records Rock and Pop division during its golden era of the 1980s was being run by lawyers. The same guys that issued the orders to drop Johnny Cash. Doh ! I am not confusing words such as 'musician', 'songwriter' and 'producer'. That is terminology tautology on your part. Its not any kind of an argument to say that I am confusing words and I notice you do this alot in discussion. Its a smoke screen to hide the lack of a solid point. Any cloth eared fool could hear the record was crap and that isn't down to the fact that it wasn't recorded DDD. It is down to the fact that White isn't very good at his job which is making music, unless you are claiming that he is really an accountant. In terms of Nashville, where you have guys like Rodney Crowell who are brilliant at every aspect of the job of music making, White would be considered c grade at best. I do fault White's intentions which were to take an artist who is far more important in musical terms than he is and put her through the mangle of his aesthetic 'style'. He should stick to his meat and two veg pub rock. Oh yeah, and he was rubbish in 'Cold Mountain' too.
    Binokular
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    8/28/2004 5:13 PM
    Todays word of the day is: Tautology. Wow, I had to get the dictionary out for that one! It means needless repetition of different words apparently. Anyway, now I that I have some idea of what yer on about... Smokescreen? You credit me with far too much cunning and intelligence. Anyway if I didn't feel I had logical point to make, why would I bother posting in the first place? Anyway back to the actual music itself. I feel that making a distinction between the roles of "musician", "producer" and "songwriter" is important when discussing the process of making a record. As important as the distintion between a director and an actor in filmaking even if such roles are taken on by the same person. My definition of producer, is someone who is responsible for how a record "sounds" (your main beef with the record). He will generally guide the musicians and the engineer until they produce the sound he is looking for. The musicans job is just to play the songs as directed by the producer and Loretta Lynn herself was pretty pleased with the standard of musicianship, even naming them the Do Whaters, because as she said "I named them that because they got in there and did whatever we needed them to!" Im not sure if I can express the point I'm trying to make clearly, but if the choice of producer affects how the finished album ends up then any artist needs to think twice before deciding on a producer. For example, if you didnt want your album to have layers of polished production, you would not choose Jeff Lynne or Phil Spector, you'd be looking for someone like Steve Albini. All producers have their own style. You can certainly criticise that style, but to criticise them for having a style is like crticising a film director for having a visual style. If Loretta Lynn knew what his style was like and hired him anyway, then that was her choice. Is it a conceit to work with an artist "greater" than yourself and to attempt to bring your own aesthetic to the collaboration? Well put it this way, you have to ask yourself should there be a caste system among musicians? I think its the dream of anyone interested in music to work with their heroes. Would you turn down such an opportunity if it presented itself? I wouldn't. But if you don't bring your own ideas or input to such a partnership, whats the point of you being there? Its just that maybe Jack Whites ideas, weren't neccesarily good ones for the project at hand. What it all comes down to is this; don't give Jack White such a hard time. In your opinion he messed up the job that he had to do, and maybe thats true, but I think his heart was in the right place.
    Rev Jules
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    8/28/2004 5:30 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Binokular
    don't give Jack White such a hard time. In your opinion he messed up the job that he had to do, and maybe thats true, but I think his heart was in the right place.
    Poor little Jack White, all these big nasty people having a go at him. Nah, he likes a good punch up himself. I appreciate all these definitions and job descriptions you give but, the truth is, music is a collaborative activity and you can't dissect it in that manner. If the band White employed just followed his instructions without argument, as you say, then from that start White was on the wrong foot, discouraging rather than encouraging his collaborators. My main beef with the record is that it is altogether crap, bad songs, sung badly, played badly, recorded badly, you name it. If the record has a sound then it is the sound of 'crap'. White didn't just mess up the job, he didn't know what the job was in the first place. He appears to lack the talent to simply record something properly. My mother could record a phone message better than he can. Jesus, they'll sling a Grammy at anyone nowdays. By the way, Prince spent his time backstage at the 2004 Grammys by teaching Beyonce musical scales. He should have included Jack White in his masterclass. Prince, now there is a real musician.
    Binokular
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    8/28/2004 5:41 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Rev Jules Prince, now there is a real musician.
    One thing we can agree on at least.
    Rev Jules
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    8/29/2004 9:54 AM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Binokular
    quote:
    Originally posted by Rev Jules Prince, now there is a real musician.
    One thing we can agree on at least.
    Oh yes
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