to put them all in a crowd in some kind of disparaging way not just something to talk about? They all produce good music, completely irrelevant about them being a crowd?!

im afraid i think this is one of those you either love it or hate it things, personally i find the place and alot of the music in that scene(SCENE in this case referring to a group of like minded people from similar backgrounds/areas, having similar interests etc) a bit too forced and aimless, (kind of like dail eireann) but i'm the kind of idiot who listens to pantera and hear the same rage that i read in patrick kavanaghs poetry so my opinion is probably best laughed at, then forgotten. but its very true what jaker says, the music should be the only thing that matters

Actually Kitt is a D4 head, Mundy is from Birr, Glen from Ballymun, Casey from Crumlin and all over and no idea where the O’Rourke fella is from but he's a bit of an accent. I don't think it reasonable to begrudge a bunch of musicians a late pint in the venue they all play. Though your right, there does seem to be a clique, the Clique of the Bland, not too dissimilar from the Clique of the Rough staring The Mighty Steff/Hub or the Clique of the Pop staring Zoo/Lillies. PS. My first post, I feel all fuzzy!

Are you (Bonzo) maybe in a band that can't get a gig in Whelans?

Basically, everyone says, 'they're such an insestuous click', so what. If you don't like their music, so what aswell, I just wouldn't look at the 'crowd' scene to be a reason to bring them down, it just seems like a pointless argument. It is not put in a 'oh look they are in a kind of gang/crowd, isn't it great, which would be equally strange so it is disparaging. You can walk up to Whelans now and if you're willing to pay you can get a booking. 'Yes men around Whelans', probably is but to say that acts like The Frames etc look down on other acts is completely unfound and impossible to prove and if they do, that is their problem. It is very bitchy if you ask me, and if what you are saying is true, aren't we just as bad for going on like a gang looking down on another gang and giving out about them? Its not as if we are untouchable because we don't put something like music out there for public criticism.

Well said, there should be a Bitchy Clique though, who would it be?

I know most of them (they'd know me a the yank with the big ass!), really they just sit around singing jeff buckley, the pixies, dylan/young and ani di franco all night, they don't really bitch. Perhaps I should rephrrase the question, what clique are you in?

I was the person who brought up the whole 'Welan's lock-in' crowd to this board. Which I now apologise for. But before I sign off and leave the debate, I just want to add my opinion to it. It was said that people like The Frames look down on other acts trying to get gigs in Whelan's. That is total nonsense. Glen Hansard has always helped other Irish (Mark Geary, Gemma Hayes, Mark Dignam etc) and foreign (Josh Ritter) artists to find their feet in the Irish music scene. And not one of them would say a bad word about The Frames or fellow Irish artists as they do all help eachother. I've interviewed such artists as Roesy, Brendan O'Shea and Mark Geary and they've all had nothing but praise for other Irish artists. If they are part of a crowd, so what really. But dismissing an artist just because you mightened, for example, like The Frames or Mundy and the artist you are hearing about happens to know them or has played with them, is total ignorance. No matter what background an artist comes from and who they know to have gotten up on the stage, the listener should at least give them a fair chance. That's why I posted the original message. I like alot of the artists currently on the Irish scene, some have had better albums or performances but they are primarily the main Irish scene. Yes Jules, there are others who branch out and fair play to them. But do not dismiss the one's who stay here and try and try again to better themselves to a larger audience. Notable recent exports are the 747s, Elaine K, Nero, Stand. Can we drop this thread now?

I agree with what you say about giving every artist a chance. Dropping the thread is fine by me but I posed a question to which I don't know the answer. Basically, has the clique that the Frames, Mundy are in affected their music? I think the answer is yes. I think they are insular and I think that it has made their latest work sub standard to what they could produce. As regards the Whelan's lock in crowd I'd rather be on the outside looking in.

I wouldn't nessacarily peg their new albums (Burn The Maps, Raining Down Arrows) as being failures due to the artists being part of a 'clique'. Yes I'm sure that their are many people who overly praise the lads for every song they produce. But with the two albums mentioned I think there is more going on. I think that both acts are trying to mature in their music, writing and publicity. Rather than playing the same type of shows, looking to take a step away from the 'clique' so they can establish themselves on in their own right (Frames headlining Marley Park) or beside other recognised artists (Mundy supporting Bob Dylan). Not everyone who plays in Whelan's is of the same mediocre volume. Isn't Janis Ian playing there soon? And that was the point I was trying to make with Declan O'Rourke. The fact that he is different. And very talented. But decide for yourself where you stand as long as you give the artist a fair chance.

No mention of Damien Dempsey, he's part of the Whelans gang yet manges to have an album better than the last!

What the f**k are people so f**king obsessed about The Frames, Whelans, Munday and all that shower for????? Their sometimes good, sometimes bad - who gives a flying f**k - there's so much more music out there, so many other types of music, so many other venues, smaller and sometimes better. I'm sick to death of all the bemoaning bastards on this board - do I sound pissed off, well yeah because this is no longer a message board with discussions, it's about people wanting to moan moan moan - right I'm off out of here....

I'll gladly drop this thread as it's pissing me off aswell, even though its probably my fault. Someone start a new exciting/interesting thread

Jesus, lads and lasses, calm down. Whelans is a PUB! A BAR! A bloody VENUE with a STAGE and a PA! It really amuses me that so many people have got so hung up on the fact that a load of musicians who hang out there until dawn are moderately successful. They are NOT successful/known/infamous because of Whelans - I dont know anyone who would buy a record because someone hangs out in a certain pub or scene. They are successful because a lot of people have heard their music and like what they have to say. Hanging out is what musicians do when they are off-duty. Bob Dylan in various cafes/bars in New York; Bruce Springsteen and his mates in New Jersey clubs; Christy Moore/Planxty in Prosperous; whatever. This is normal behaviour. Musicians gravitate towards other musicians just as bulldozer drivers gravitate towards bulldozer drivers and drug dealers hang out together on Thomas Street. The only people who are probably very happy to see the Whelans thread continue and agitate so many people are the owners of the bar themselves. At the end of the night, it's all cash to them. Maybe the best idea would be to give the cops in Kevin St a call and ask them to raid the place after the next Paddy Casey/Damien Dempsey/Mundy/Frames/Declan O'Rourke/Walls gig??? Go on, the number is 01 6669400

they're all a shower of c**ts!!!!

Cheers Jules. I might just do an OpEd on this whole debate. I have been slacking with my submissions lately but have to get back on track. Hopefully I will have some reviews up this week. And maybe then an OpEd the week after.

I like Whelans as a venue and have gone to great gigs there but someone said earlier about anyone can book Whelans. I have been told firstly by a few people, you are asked obviously who your band are, where you in another band, who your support is going to be. After they assess what type of a crowd you are going to pull they will give you a night early in the week. Then you never know if that night will be cancelled if another bigger band comes along, even though you have paid your money!! I know they are running a business and want to make money on the bar and so on, but they are not promoting the music industry who they are making their money from. What this country needs is more smaller venues, like the Attic, Fox and Pheasant with people running them that love music with a passion. Also need a decent music magazine that is not full of ads with good writers. Just a though if the syndicate with Whelans on board wins the new radio licence, will the only gigs in there be Mundy, Declan O'Rourke and so on. Will the music station only play these tunes!!

Interesting stuff here....Heres my opinion , hopefully it wont offend too many here, if it does feck ya! Whelans not so much a venue but a state of mind it would appear. Personally I dislike the place, think its far too highly rated as a venue to watch and play gigs. Staff are brutal and rude. Costs nothing to be polite and I think they sometimes forget they are paid to serve beer, some of them see themselves as some type of minor celebrities or something..."oh hang on a second there's John who knows Bill who I once saw sit with Glen and he smiled at me so I'll serve him first" ...huh? Meanwhile you're standing there for 20 mins until they begrudgingly give in and serve you with some kind of disgusted look on their faces. In fairness though, when Gavin Fox was there I always thought he did his job and didn’t act like some kind of ....what’s the term?...Knob Jockey Regarding the crowd, the crowd in general is changing all the time I think, a lot of Ben Sherman afficionados these days from my small number of recent and brief observations. No offence to anyone intended, there is a shift, its definitley less indie/alt and more mainstream/cool/ "metro sexual" (its new you know loike?). I used to think Whelans was populated by mopey, naval gazing, mid 20's D4, Church of Hansard types who were depressed cause Daddy wouldn’t lend them the BMW after the last time they crashed it locked out of there face on the way home on the Stillorgan dueller or something?...(My God I never realised how bitter and twisted I sound) I think that is less the case nowadays...maybe that was just some false perception I had cause I didn’t/ don’t fit in, I had problems ya see, therapist says my integration into society is almost complete (the shame.... the shame). Anyway to get back on topic, who is in the clique or lock in crowd? No doubt all the aforementioned Hansards and so on, but so what? They built their little buzz and have made their own successes, fair play, let them have it, become part of it or don’t its your choice but why is it necessary to begrudge them? Its not necessary at all there are plenty of other venues with plenty of other good things happening. Don’t get me wrong I find a lot of it pretty lame and there is anatmosphere of arrogance that you can pick up on from time to time....Im gonna open a can of worms here but think that it might be something to do with the levels of "recreational" substances consumed by a lot of the clientelle (Wow! what a generalisation I know). Everytime I’m in the place recently I have observed or have been offered some s**te or other, a couple of my mates have said the same(Who cares about you and your mates... whatever). Its the same elsewhere I accept, Whelans is probably no better or worse in this regard perhaps but a good venue is place where people go to see gigs ....most people go to Whelans, to go to Whelans if ya get me, that’s pretty naff, maybe they all want in on the in corwd. Wake up if everyones in there is no clique stop fooling yourselves….just kidding ….eh?! I could be wrong like I said its my opinion. I know Ive rambled off topic but If someone asked me where to go to get involved in new music in Ireland I dont think I would send them to Whelans as it would give a bad impression, a lot of good acts do play there, but as Herbie said "new acts" well, as explained above posts...In conclusion its not a friendly place, it is not a place that encourages new music and the bar staff suck big time. Also the place needs some new cds I think the occassional time Im hauled into the place there's always the same stuff on. Regarding the Phantom comment above, I think time will tell if they "sell out", I suspect that there will be a little more commercial control exercised out of necessity to keep the figures looking good but I do have a certain level of confidence that they will push new acts as they have done in the past. Oh really ? My personal experience with dealing with some bands around is that Phantom has opened some doors for them by getting more people exposed to the bands music, I can only presume they will honour there stance on this subject as outlined in their application, if anyone has a good reason to believe they wouldnt Id like to hear it? (Thats not an invitation to trade insults or whatever) A lot of waffle on nothing....I had some time to kill. All the best T

hey Pilchard .... dont misunderstand me here I dont want to blabber or cause offence but I reckon Phantom should be a given a bit of lee way here, I reckon they will deliver some valuable exposure to new bands , Im not suggesting they will champion bands as easily as they had done before there was a commercial interest but I believe they will be true to their roots as much as is possible should they be successful. I hope they are , they have done a lot already and from the submissions , phantoms seems a little more focussed and more to my taste, the zed target demograph seems very wide?( Not a critcism or whatever more an observation) You asked why they have to jump into bed with the likes of MCD , well I believe its because capital is required, in this small little playing field there are only a small number of people who can afford to play within the rules. Money is required because Phantom has to run a viable, professional entity that can pay folks and will attract investment .....if its not viable every muppett and their mother would be transmitting (cue debate)....at the end of the day some form of regulation , quality assurance needs to be implemented (thats the game!), the current set up ....in my un informed opinion seems more weighted to commercial viability than aesthetic merit, with end result being that stations need to put commercial realities first and other aesthitic preferences second. I think Phantom will continue to be a valuable resource and vehicle for bands to get their music out there in a way that no other station is currently doing, they have a niche maket to a degree and I think they will expand it and I believe it will be to the benefit of new acts coming through. From my own experience I know how difficult it can be to play ball with the other major players , phantom in my experience have great staff and people with a passion, we all watch with baited breath to see what happens....needless to say I hope Im proven correct. T PS Sell Out = Compromising ones ethics/morals/ideals for commercial, political, financial reward (my definition)

My posts are long and waffly . i like waffles I does.

Accept all your points fully , the issue is not with Phantom but in how they are forced to operate. I think most people would subscribe to this view. Like I said Im pretty un informed on this subject, I guess fundamentally this is the oldest arguement in the book when it boils downs to it...the artistic credibility V the need to turn a buck (To use a woefully american expression)

Sincere apologies to mod for going way off the Topic