Optimus Basic Member Posts:312  
| 9/29/2004 3:18 PM |
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You misunderstand.
Dublin aint a bad place.
The people within make it a bad place, government, scangers and the like.
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Rev Jules Veteran Member Posts:1041
| 9/29/2004 4:49 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mutch
Bottom line: if people want to get out of their minds with beer they do not need a pub.
Yeah we've a problem, but if it was a simple as changing the closing hours do you not think it would have been recommended a few times by someone neutral to our situation?
First of all, let me say that I find it very objectionable that Dabullets used a music website to try and trot out a line of propaganda for the vintners association. Especially when you consider the huge number of musicians whose careers were either damaged or ended prematurely through alcoholism.
I shed no tears for the drink industry. They have profited to an incredible degree over the last number of years, certainly to the detriment of the health and well being of an increasingly precentage of our society.
Second, I think those of you who think dabullets is right need to wise up. This is what Stephen Rowen, the Director of the Rutland Centre, a leading agency in Ireland for residential treatment of addiction, said in discussion about what needs to be done to tackle the chronic problem of alcohol abuse, "Rolling back the pub opening hours to where they were before the summer of 2000 would help".
This is what the Irish Times said on the same subject, "The rise in alcohol consumption was facilitated by longer pub opening hours, introduced some years ago, and it has been reinforced by extensive advertising and promotional campaigns."
This is how much we like our booze...Between 1989 and 1999 consumption of alcohol in Ireland increased by a staggering 41 per cent, bringing the country to the top of the European league. In the last thirty years consumption has tripled.
So, little cronies for the drinks industry like dabullets and the semi literate mutts who 'support' him can go swing.
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BinokularVeteran Member Posts:1665
| 9/29/2004 5:13 PM |
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Jules, great points, but just to get things away from heavy social issues for a bit and focus onto the the more shallow and admittedly trivial area of the music scene. How can the drink problem be tackled without killing off the club scene? Clubs without alcohol? Would it work? Kind of reminds me of the bizarre situation that my parents used to tell me about with the showbands in the sixties. I think they had to stop serving drink for an hour around midnight or something bizzare like that. Whats really needed is to be able to enable people having a night out and have a good time but without alcohol as the main focus. Are people capable of enjoying themselves without a drink? I know I can, because I was usually the only one amongst my friends with a car.
Er.. Ok I'm rambling a bit and I'm not entirely sure of the point I'm trying to make, but I guess the question is can't we have fun without consuming large quantities of alcohol?
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mutchBasic Member Posts:392
| 9/29/2004 5:27 PM |
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Jules, i represent no one but myself. Keep your suppositions private.
Your unhelpful comment "semi literate mutts"
fair comment some of us dont use puntuation etc.
this is the internet though, thought you might have some accross that before,
you want to express an opinion about members can i request you open a new topic.
I stand by my comment about opening hours.
Dealers of illegal drugs cannot open fullstop but yet many of my friends have suffered the ill effects of their products over time.
Also, I dont think the changes in alchohol consumption should be isolated from the changes in Ireland in the same period. I think its totally useless to look at data in this fashion.
I'm sure you'll throw something back at me for this. Go ahead. I'm just an seNi Lliterate mtOts.
oops me spell rong.
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Vent My Spleen Advanced Member Posts:500
| 9/29/2004 5:57 PM |
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Jules, surely no more objectionable that trotting out Ministerial propaganda, no? 
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Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 9/29/2004 7:42 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Vent My Spleen
Jules, surely no more objectionable that trotting out Ministerial propaganda, no?
Oh, I wan't quoting any Irish minister, I was quoting a person who helps addicts to overcome their addictions and a newspaper editor.
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OptimusBasic Member Posts:312
| 9/30/2004 8:27 AM |
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This has just gotten WAY to heavy for me to be bothered.
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El DuderinoBasic Member Posts:179
| 9/30/2004 9:10 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Rev Jules
Originally posted by mutch
Second, I think those of you who think dabullets is right need to wise up
I agree with dabullets that it's wrong to have a blanket closing hour because this will lead to serious disorder in the city centre every weekend. Is that unreasonable? Jules, you don't seem to be taking a practical view of this situation. Fair enough, drink has contributed to the downfall of many a musician but some people just need something to get them through their lives. If it wasn't drink it'd be something else.
I hold no sympathy for the drinks industry but I don't see them as evil pushers of alcohol trying to make everyone an alcoholic. As has been said before on this thread, everyone is responsible for their own actions and if this country wasn't so packed with selfish bastards, oblivious to the concept of considering other people, we wouldn't have this problem. The way it is at the moment, bringing forward the closing hour does not deal with the issue and standardising pub closing time on such a large scale will only lead to further, possibly much worse problems |
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Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 9/30/2004 10:51 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by El Duderino
I agree with dabullets that it's wrong to have a blanket closing hour because this will lead to serious disorder in the city centre every weekend. Is that unreasonable? Jules, you don't seem to be taking a practical view of this situation. Fair enough, drink has contributed to the downfall of many a musician but some people just need something to get them through their lives. If it wasn't drink it'd be something else.
I hold no sympathy for the drinks industry but I don't see them as evil pushers of alcohol trying to make everyone an alcoholic. As has been said before on this thread, everyone is responsible for their own actions and if this country wasn't so packed with selfish bastards, oblivious to the concept of considering other people, we wouldn't have this problem. The way it is at the moment, bringing forward the closing hour does not deal with the issue and standardising pub closing time on such a large scale will only lead to further, possibly much worse problems
1) This is a music website. It is not a discussion board for subjects totally unrelated to music. If you want to get some facts about the matter before you start shooting, have a look at the statistics to be found at the following link
http://www.healthpromotion.ie/topics/alcohol/alcofacts/statistics/#3
2) Dabullets was urging Cluas readers to sign a petition on behalf of an organisation called the Irish Nightclubs Association and he wrote that, "If this (the new pub/club closing times) goes through then there will potentially be up to 2000 people in Dublin alone, who work in the nightclub industry out of a job when their place of work closes as it is unable to compete". That sounds very like promoting the drinks industry's business interests to me.
3) We have seen the effects of more liberal opening hours over the last four years. It is a greater number of chronically drunk people.
I assume that your solution to this is not to close pubs at all but, on past experience, all that is likely happen is that alcohol consumption will simply continue to rise.
4) I don't agree that these closing times are an infringement of civil liberties. What I do think is an infringement of our liberties is not being able to safely walk down a street at night because of the packs of male and female drunken louts roaming the city. Almost half of all crime in Ireland is alcohol related. Alcohol contributes to impulsive and aggressive behaviour. It also affects our ability to judge other people's behaviour and intent, together with impairing ability to foretell the consequences of our own actions.
5) If, as you say, Ireland is full of "selfish bastards" then we cannot leave it up to individual choice, we simply have to legislate to protect those who don't want to be harrased by drunks. In fact, if the Gardai parked paddy wagons outside night clubs and pubs and automatically arrested people who were obviously and seriously drunk, and then used such arrests to prosecute the publicans, I wonder how long it would be before things started to quieten down. The laws already exist to do that. Firstly, it is an offence for a licensee to permit drunkenness to take place in the bar of a licensed premises. Secondly, it is an offence for a person to be intoxicated in a public place to such an extent as would give rise to a reasonable apprehension that they might endanger themselves of any other person in the vicinity.
I am going to go out on a limb here and make a prediction that, at some future point, someone is going to take a class action suit against those who manufacture and sell alcoholic beverages which is similar in outline to the law suits taken previously against Big Tobacco in the US.
For those of you so interested, you can read the European Alcohol Action Plan 2000-2005 at the following weblink
http://www.ias.org.uk/publications/theglobe/99issue4/globe9904_p7.html
If this is the way that the EU is thinking about combating alcohol, earlier closing times are the least of the drinks industry's worries.
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mutchBasic Member Posts:392
| 9/30/2004 11:33 AM |
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unreal. absoultly amazing. yuove provided me with alot of entertainment Julie.
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El DuderinoBasic Member Posts:179
| 9/30/2004 11:34 AM |
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As I said, I'm not gonna sign a petition that makes a publicans position any stronger. They have been more than willing to rip us off at every given opportunity. I never said I supported dabullets promotion of this petition but for purely practical reasons I don't think all pubs should close at the same time. What would your solution be? Shut the pubs altogether??
Due to the fact that this country is full of selfish bastards (a gross generalisation. It's just that the selfish bastards are the loudest and always get their way) it would be insane to dump such a large amount of drunk people with no concern for the well being of anyone else on the streets at the same time.
Maybe that idea with the paddy wagon would work, or maybe the gardai would just antagonise people that are looking for agro already. Wholesale riots are hardly a posetive solution.
I don't see someones right to get s**tfaced as a civil liberty either. Civil liberties would be infringed upon if this law gets passed however as I'm gonna be kicked out onto the streets at 1:30 along with the entire drunken contents of my chosen pub and every other pub. You honestly think violence won't erupt? (and erupt is the right word). Do I no longer have the right to have a few pints and go home without getting caught in the middle of the consequences of a short sighted law?
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Dabullets New Member Posts:26
| 9/30/2004 11:38 AM |
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Jules, quick question for ye. the 2000 people in Dublin alone that could have lost their jobs if this proposal had of gone through, do you really think that they are concerned about the actual vintners association or the nightclubs accosiation and their lack of profits because of early closing hours or do you think that it might be because they are trying to make a living ? How many students etc work in these places to make the money to pay their bills. Maybe its just me but if we can keep people employed in this sector then we should be keeping them employed and not putting them back in the social welfare line, where the people of Ireland will end up paying even more money to support them. Just as well tho eh, as we wont need the money to go out as the pubs and clubs will be closing early.
And for the record, I was urging people to sign any sort of petition, write letters or send mails to anyone in the public eye that might be able to voice the opinion and feelings of the majority of the people on the matter of more of their rights being infringed.
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DabulletsNew Member Posts:26
| 9/30/2004 11:46 AM |
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Jesus Christ, it was a petition started by the publicans, fair enough, but it was also a way of people getting their feelings across about closing all pubs and clubs at the same time.
I certainly dont agree with the practises of bar and club owners in this country and their years of complete disregard for the people that have been lining their pockets by pushing the prices up as far as they can until it has now reached crisis point. It is only because people have started sitting in more with take outs rather than going to pubs that they are now proposing price cuts because of falling profits. This was the people of Ireland and Dublin taking their own stance and this petition was another one.
Some people do like to stay out later than 1.30am, obviously thats going to be in a licensed premises so even if this petition wasnt started by the nightclubs association and was started by another non licensed assosiated association then it would still be in the interest of the nightclubs associtation. So kinda like cutting your nose off to spite your face if you didnt want blanket closing times, but just wouldnt sign it because of who started it.
Staggered times are the way forward, for the people that want to have a good time and not for the people making the money. Thats my say on it and my last post on it.
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OptimusBasic Member Posts:312
| 9/30/2004 1:57 PM |
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I think you all need to relax.
I understand the grievous situation at hand, y'know, being that irish bodies are 80% alcohol and all but I really do feel that this has gotten out of hand.
Jesus it's just a discussion board weither it relates to music or not.
Calm down lads.
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BinokularVeteran Member Posts:1665
| 9/30/2004 2:03 PM |
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I dunno Optimus, better they get it all out of there system in here rather than on the street after they've got a few pints in them |
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Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 9/30/2004 2:05 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by El Duderino
As I said, I'm not gonna sign a petition that makes a publicans position any stronger. They have been more than willing to rip us off at every given opportunity. I never said I supported dabullets promotion of this petition but for purely practical reasons I don't think all pubs should close at the same time. What would your solution be? Shut the pubs altogether??
Due to the fact that this country is full of selfish bastards (a gross generalisation. It's just that the selfish bastards are the loudest and always get their way) it would be insane to dump such a large amount of drunk people with no concern for the well being of anyone else on the streets at the same time.
Maybe that idea with the paddy wagon would work, or maybe the gardai would just antagonise people that are looking for agro already. Wholesale riots are hardly a posetive solution.
I don't see someones right to get s**tfaced as a civil liberty either. Civil liberties would be infringed upon if this law gets passed however as I'm gonna be kicked out onto the streets at 1:30 along with the entire drunken contents of my chosen pub and every other pub. You honestly think violence won't erupt? (and erupt is the right word). Do I no longer have the right to have a few pints and go home without getting caught in the middle of the consequences of a short sighted law?
El Dude,
1) I agree about not signing the petition. I wouldn't either.
2) I never said that you supported this petition. You clearly wrote that you agreed with dabullets instead on the issue that you were against a, "a blanket closing hour because this will lead to serious disorder in the city centre every weekend". I would say that we already have serious disorder in the city centre at the weekend which is why this earlier closing time is being introduced in the first place.
3) Yes, I agree that publicans and night club owners have been ripping off the public for years.
4) There is no quick fix solution to cutting the incidence of alcohol related violence but, yes, I do think that toughening up the closing hours is a step in the right direction, since relaxing them has only made the problem worse over the last few years. I can't see how staggered closing will reduce the problem either. The core issue is that a sizeable proportion of the public drink to excess and get agressive when they do so. The longer the opening hours, the more they will drink in public. Make the publican liable, impose fines in excess of € 50,000 per offence, rescind drinks licenses, you'll start to see publicans being alot more strict about enforcing existing law.
5) We concur about the lose of civil liberties through the antics of drunken eejits. It is they who are ultimately affecting your right to have a few quiet pints.
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OptimusBasic Member Posts:312
| 9/30/2004 2:07 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Binokular
I dunno Optimus, better they get it all out of there system in here rather than on the street after they've got a few pints in them
Mayhaps friend Bonkular, however there's garbage polluting the net and I'm sick of bad vibes.
Life is far too short and I really think that while the enforcement side of it is something I dont agree with, there are more important in life than having your drinking time cut down by two hours.
Y'know? |
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Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 9/30/2004 2:08 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Optimus
Jesus it's just a discussion board weither it relates to music or not.
Calm down lads.
Compared to the Damien Rice was of a few weeks back, this is quite tame. Remember them Doc ?  |
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BinokularVeteran Member Posts:1665
| 9/30/2004 2:11 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Optimus
quote:
Originally posted by Binokular
I dunno Optimus, better they get it all out of there system in here rather than on the street after they've got a few pints in them
Mayhaps friend Bonkular, however there's garbage polluting the net and I'm sick of bad vibes.
Life is far too short and I really think that while the enforcement side of it is something I dont agree with, there are more important in life than having your drinking time cut down by two hours.
Y'know?
Amen Brother! |
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El DuderinoBasic Member Posts:179
| 9/30/2004 2:13 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Rev Jules
quote:
Originally posted by El Duderino
As I said, I'm not gonna sign a petition that makes a publicans position any stronger. They have been more than willing to rip us off at every given opportunity. I never said I supported dabullets promotion of this petition but for purely practical reasons I don't think all pubs should close at the same time. What would your solution be? Shut the pubs altogether??
Due to the fact that this country is full of selfish bastards (a gross generalisation. It's just that the selfish bastards are the loudest and always get their way) it would be insane to dump such a large amount of drunk people with no concern for the well being of anyone else on the streets at the same time.
Maybe that idea with the paddy wagon would work, or maybe the gardai would just antagonise people that are looking for agro already. Wholesale riots are hardly a posetive solution.
I don't see someones right to get s**tfaced as a civil liberty either. Civil liberties would be infringed upon if this law gets passed however as I'm gonna be kicked out onto the streets at 1:30 along with the entire drunken contents of my chosen pub and every other pub. You honestly think violence won't erupt? (and erupt is the right word). Do I no longer have the right to have a few pints and go home without getting caught in the middle of the consequences of a short sighted law?
El Dude,
1) I agree about not signing the petition. I wouldn't either.
2) I never said that you supported this petition. You clearly wrote that you agreed with dabullets instead on the issue that you were against a, "a blanket closing hour because this will lead to serious disorder in the city centre every weekend". I would say that we already have serious disorder in the city centre at the weekend which is why this earlier closing time is being introduced in the first place.
3) Yes, I agree that publicans and night club owners have been ripping off the public for years.
4) There is no quick fix solution to cutting the incidence of alcohol related violence but, yes, I do think that toughening up the closing hours is a step in the right direction, since relaxing them has only made the problem worse over the last few years. I can't see how staggered closing will reduce the problem either. The core issue is that a sizeable proportion of the public drink to excess and get agressive when they do so. The longer the opening hours, the more they will drink in public. Make the publican liable, impose fines in excess of € 50,000 per offence, rescind drinks licenses, you'll start to see publicans being alot more strict about enforcing existing law.
5) We concur about the lose of civil liberties through the antics of drunken eejits. It is they who are ultimately affecting your right to have a few quiet pints.
I didn't think we could come to an amicable agreement but it appears we did. It's been a good conversation  |
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