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Last Post 2/2/2005 11:40 AM by  Gar
Racism In Ireland
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Gar
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2/2/2005 11:40 AM
    Ok, I don't want to start a big hate breeding assault here but just get a few opinions from whoever wants to contribute. I was watching the Arsenal vs Man Utd match (cracking game but not the result I was hoping for) and all the players were sporting new badges on their kits. It was the logo of 'Stand Up Speak Up', the new Anti Racism Campaign fronted by Nike. Anyway, a mate of mine text me after the match and noted that this was a very good idea and maybe more awareness should be in place. He said to me that racism exists in the Irish music scene, to which I was very sceptical of him saying. He said that Irish audiences are slow to warm to coloured/multi-cultured acts and that he was hard pushed to remember the last time he paid to see a coloured person. Personally, I don't think of say a band like Bloc Party as a white band with a black singer. It doesn't bother me. But he suggested that I ask if other music fans think that a form of racism exists in Ireland. I'm not sure about all this but thought I would throw it out there. And for anyone that is interested, that Nike campaign is being fronted over at www.standupspeakup.com
    vandala
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    2/2/2005 11:48 AM
    Politically correct as it might sound, you'd want to watch yourself using the word "coloured". While it's obvious you mean no offence by it, there are plenty of people who would (rightly, in my opinion) see it as a pejorative term.
    Gar
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    2/2/2005 12:01 PM
    Sorry I didn't mean anything by it but as I said it was what a mate of mine said. I posted this thread as I am unaware of any forms of racism in the music scene but maybe other people could've spotted something. Apologies if anyone took any offence.
    vandala
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    2/2/2005 12:09 PM
    It's certainly no skin off my (Caucasian) nose. I do agree with you, however: the topic is definitely worth discussing further.
    mutch
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    2/2/2005 12:09 PM
    being a middle class white boy I'm in no position to fully understand racism, and I dont make a habit of getting offended on anyones behalf, but its a bloody interesting point Gar. Why do we not see any of the foreigners that we see everyday working around the country playing the local ciruit? Or am I just ignorant? When you think about, traditionally music is the thing that can bring different communities together, isnt it? How about a musical equivilant of Nike idea?
    karlvin
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    2/2/2005 12:24 PM
    Very interesting point , here's a link to one thing that's going on , http://www.ontheverge.ie/news.htm see the news down the bottom about the anti racism stuff, they interesting part is getting as many people from different cultural backgrounds to play.
    Mully
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    2/2/2005 12:28 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Gar
    he was hard pushed to remember the last time he paid to see a coloured person.
    Me neither, top of my head Sepultura in TBMC last year, & Ice Cube at Sunstroke dack in the day. But I'm not going to see a black person, I'm going to see a good band/act/whatever. I think it the musical circles we move in & the sounds we are brough up with. Generally (Getting my tarring brush out) Black people are drawn to RnB & Urban music, on the otherhand you have whiteboy Rock & Folk. I dont like RnB, so I dont go see it, or its performers. Only other black person I can think of fronting a UK band was Skin from Skunk Anansie. Take away the boybands s**te, & you have few white people singing RnB.
    Unicron
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    2/2/2005 1:24 PM
    A band from Galway called Lucas have recently recruited a new guitarist from Jamaica, other than that I've yet to see a black person in any Irish band.
    Dromed
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    2/2/2005 1:28 PM
    Interesting topic Gar...fair play for bringing it up! I do think that there is a frightening increase in racism simmering away in Ireland at the moment, the reasons for which are far reaching and complex. As a nation that begged on the doorsteps of so many other countries in our time of need, we know first hand the experience of famine and poverty and what it feels like to be the outcasts of society. It sickens me to see us doing to immigrants what has been done to us in the past. However, I do not think racism is prevalent in the music scene in Ireland. I think that 'World' music, which by nature is made up of diverse ethnicity, is starting to become far more popular now than it was before. In the last year Youssou N'Dour, Nitin Sawhney, Toots and the Maytals, Roots Manuva, Horace Andy & Mad Professor, DAARA J & Lil Chi, Jo Tta Kun + Oroz , Ozomatli, Antiablas Afrobeat Orchestra, Femi Kuti & The Positive Force, Clotaire K and loads more have all played here. These acts aren’t all ‘world’ music by any means, ranging from French hip hop to Sengalise percussive to Asian fusion electro beats. Crawdaddy in particular are flying the flag of multi-cultural music booking acts from all over, and selling out their venue to boot most of the time! I think Irish people have always had a respect and love of black music – particularly reggae and soul. Gospel music has made a huge come back in the past couple of years with various choirs and groups setting up in Ireland too. I do think, however, indie/rock music (and certainly not just in Ireland) is predominately white and westernised. I’m not sure why to be honest. It’s interesting though because the foundations of rock’n’roll were built on rhythm and blues and soul music to begin with…...has it lost touch with it’s roots?
    Optimus
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    2/2/2005 1:34 PM
    I think it's fair to say that up until the last few years, Ireland has been a predominantley white culture. And when you're used to that, matters of force of habit and such are embedded into your personality. So I think it's fair to say that it's not racist...it's just that you automatically stick to the familiar, subconcously. Me? I dont give a s**t about colour, race, whatever. We're all the same and we all still get morons from different countries and cultures all over there world. We're not different than the jamaicans, except that they're far more chilled out than we are. However I've been looking for a black singer for a long time. Purely because of the sheer power of the voice those guys have. And I'm not being racist. They just have stronger voices than us whities.
    Unicron
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    2/2/2005 1:40 PM
    A quick tale of racism becasue it occured today. I dropped off a friend at his flat last night around 12:30 and went in for a quick game of PES4 (turned into 5 but whatever), I parked in one of the spaces outside his flat reasoning that even thought I didn't have a permit it was 12:30, who is going to mind and I'm visiting a resident. It gets to 1:45 and I leave to find that some motherf**ker has clamped me (I know I was technically in the wrong but still, clampers are by default motherf**kers), I'm not paying €135 to get it free so I crash at the freinds place before waking up at 7 to pay €90 to get my car back. I arrived in work at 9 to find that as it's Wednesday the bin men are there to pick up our cardboard and paper for recycling, I was the first in but I don't have a key so I waited outside chatting to the bin guys and ended up recounting my expensive tale of woe, the guy turns to me and says "it was them blacks, they're always out at night."
    Eoin
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    2/2/2005 1:45 PM
    isnt that lead singer/guitarist from Relish black ??? anyway, I generally do not like RnB music which is mostly performed by black musicians, its a taste thing not a colour thing. However I adore Reggae music in all its forms which is also mostly performed by black musicians. To be honest when I go and see an indie band (ie. 5 white guys) or a reggae act the only thought on my mind is the music and the music only, colour is not an issue, for any genuine music fan I would imagine it is the same. I have to say that I have a problem with people who seem to bandy the word racist around like confetti, it really takes away the effect of such a tag when it is applied to someone who indeed a racist.
    Unicron
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    2/2/2005 1:45 PM
    As much as I hate to admit it I think that many of the Irish are inherently racist, just look to the North, and even 30 years ago the protestants down here were "black" before we had any blacks.
    Eoin
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    2/2/2005 1:51 PM
    true, just the same for Catholics in the 6 counties though eh !
    Mully
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    2/2/2005 2:21 PM
    I remember seeing Dylan Moran few yrs ago. He was talking about Immigration. The Irish, he said, Have always been racist, since time immemorial .... but it was only now that we got a chance to use it. Made me smile.
    Rev Jules
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    2/2/2005 2:33 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Dromed
    the foundations of rock’n’roll were built on rhythm and blues and soul music to begin with...
    'Rock and Roll music is basically Rhythm & Blues and Gospel' Elvis Presley, in conversation, 1968.
    kierry
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    2/2/2005 4:01 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Optimus
    However I've been looking for a black singer for a long time. Purely because of the sheer power of the voice those guys have. And I'm not being racist. They just have stronger voices than us whities.
    yes. "they" do. don't they. they're great dancers too i hear.
    klootfan
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    2/2/2005 4:32 PM
    quote:
    yes. "they" do. don't they. they're great dancers too i hear.
    These days its like a minefield when it comes to using language to refer to certain groups/categorys of people/races. It seems to me that we should all be carrying around some sort of dictionary of "approved" words which is periodically updated once a week as previously "ok" terms become "offensive" and replaced with newer "non offensive" terminology. In the quote from above, he was not purposely trying to offend anyone, and yet in some case people would jump on this as a classic case of racism. Is it not more important that we deal with the most severe cases of racism first, where people are being attacked and spat at on the streets or being prevented from getting an education or a decent job. Yes there is terminology that people use that is openly racist and that cannot be condoned, but analysing peoples comments for words which are unintentionally potentionally racist is just stupid in my opinion. Sorry..getting away from the music there.. Im sure we could all spend pages discussing racism
    Optimus
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    2/2/2005 4:34 PM
    'Rock and Roll music is basically Rhythm & Blues and Gospel' Elvis Presley, in conversation, 1968. That old chestnut, eh?
    kierry
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    2/2/2005 4:54 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by klootfan
    These days its like a minefield when it comes to using language to refer to certain groups/categorys of people/races. It seems to me that we should all be carrying around some sort of dictionary of "approved" words which is periodically updated once a week as previously "ok" terms become "offensive" and replaced with newer "non offensive" terminology. In the quote from above, he was not purposely trying to offend anyone, and yet in some case people would jump on this as a classic case of racism. Is it not more important that we deal with the most severe cases of racism first, where people are being attacked and spat at on the streets or being prevented from getting an education or a decent job. Yes there is terminology that people use that is openly racist and that cannot be condoned, but analysing peoples comments for words which are unintentionally potentionally racist is just stupid in my opinion. Sorry..getting away from the music there.. Im sure we could all spend pages discussing racism
    this is all true. but using the words 'they' and 'them' is a segrigationalist mindset, and this i find is the source of the problem. Us and Them. different. most folk are good, honest people who would never dreaming of saying anything racist to anyone and would be shocked at the thought. but its generalisations and segregations like this that are more subliminal and deep-rooted, and i dislike these as much as the more obvious kind.
    klootfan
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    2/2/2005 4:58 PM
    fair enough...i suppose in someway an education process needs to take place in ireland as to what is and isnt acceptable in terms of terminology. As someone has already said, up until relatively recently, irish people in general were not exposed to foreign people and their cultures. I think you are right though. most irish people are not purposely racist.
    kierry
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    2/2/2005 5:09 PM
    Nail on the head, its all about education. Statistical trends point to immigrants (and by this i mean anyone moving into the country) mostly moving to disadvantaged areas. this causes a knock-on affect, as statistics would also point to most crime and prison inmates being from disadvantaged areas. as a consequence, a cycle is created which takes generations to escape from, which causes predjudice and mistrust. Ireland is still one of the only country where a person could tell a racist joke to his friends in the pub. Education (at its best) can intigrate society in a way that removes boundaries. Aswell as learning about different cultures a student can mix with people from different cultures and think less about and 'Us' and 'them' situation. it will get better. hopefully.
    Rev Jules
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    2/2/2005 6:01 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by kierry
    ...Ireland is still one of the only country where a person could tell a racist joke to his friends in the pub...
    I have edited the above phrase for sense to remove any inadvertant misunderstanding of Kierry's point.
    Unicron
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    2/2/2005 6:09 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Eoin
    true, just the same for Catholics in the 6 counties though eh !
    True but the North still has those sectarian problems, I was just pointing out that racism/sectarianism didn't just appear without precident in the republic in '98 when we first started getting refugees in significant numbers. And besides, everyone remembers what Catholics were exposed to in the North, the fact that there were boycotts of Protestant business's back in the day (there was that case in Wicklow over the mixed denomination couple which caused a boycott because the father objected to the priest coming to the house and insisting that the kids were raised Catholic, they made a film about it) and that as a girl my mum (and it wasn't limited to her I'm sure) got stoned (and not the good way) while walking to and from school isn't so prominant in the public conciousness. For the record, I've never experienced any kind of problem because of the denomination in which I was raised in this country so whatever happened then certainly doesn't happen now.
    Archie
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    2/2/2005 9:06 PM
    We're talking about people with different coloured skin, but what about English? The Irish for some god-unknown reason still persist in hating them (at least when they're drunk) I know of at least one guy fronting a local Irish band who gets serious stick when people hear his English accent.
    stroller
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    2/3/2005 3:28 AM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Unicron
    A band from Galway called Lucas have recently recruited a new guitarist from Jamaica, other than that I've yet to see a black person in any Irish band.
    What about Thin Lizzy?
    Unicron
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    2/3/2005 1:19 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by stroller What about Thin Lizzy?
    Pardon me while I bang my head against the wall because of my stupidity.
    mutch
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    2/3/2005 6:06 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by kierry
    quote:
    Originally posted by Optimus
    However I've been looking for a black singer for a long time. Purely because of the sheer power of the voice those guys have. And I'm not being racist. They just have stronger voices than us whities.
    yes. "they" do. don't they. they're great dancers too i hear.
    I know what youer saying and its all good, however, I'm asusming yuo are white, in which case to be offend on someone elses behalf is the height of arrogance. watch a richard pryor dvd
    kierry
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    2/3/2005 10:20 PM
    quote:
    I know what youer saying and its all good, however, I'm asusming yuo are white, in which case to be offend on someone elses behalf is the height of arrogance. watch a richard pryor dvd
    i'm not offended. i used a 'disapprove' smiley. and i actually think the height of arrogance is telling someone that their opinion is the 'height of arrogance'. thanks for your time, Kierry. ps: use spellcheck.
    Gar
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    2/3/2005 11:09 PM
    That Richard Pryor dvd is great stuff...
    Unicron
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    2/4/2005 1:25 PM
    My favourite Pryer gig is on a video called live and smoking where he's coked out of his mind and he's playing to the whitest audience imaginable, he died spectacularly. I must pick up that one that was released recently.
    mutch
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    2/4/2005 5:17 PM
    i'm not offended. i used a 'disapprove' smiley. and i actually think the height of arrogance is telling someone that their opinion is the 'height of arrogance'. thanks for your time, Kierry. ps: use spellcheck. ********** amazing. really and truly amazing!


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