Whatever happened to the 'front man'? - CLUAS Irish Indie Music -

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Last Post 11/23/2004 5:09 PM by bonzo

Whatever happened to the 'front man'?

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bonzo

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Posts:364

11/23/2004 5:09 PM
Why do a lot of Irish bands have front men who play guitar on nearly every song?

Binokular

Veteran Member
Posts:1665

11/23/2004 5:21 PM
No idea, puzzled as to why you find it annoying?

Eric

Basic Member
Posts:179

11/23/2004 5:25 PM
...because most singer/songwriters play guitar. I think thats fairly universal, not just an Irish thing. It wouldn't put me off a band!??

Gar

Veteran Member
Posts:1676

11/23/2004 5:25 PM
There are loads of front men who don't play guitar on the majority of their band's songs. Look at Mick Pyro from Republic Of Loose, fella from The Things, fella from Sack. But I'm with Binokular on this one when asking 'Why is it so annoying for you?'

Archie

Basic Member
Posts:458

11/23/2004 6:06 PM
What odds does it make if he just sings or if he sings and plays guitar or piano or drums or bass or xylophone or recorder or cello or trombone? (or all of the above together? that would indeed be interesting)

bonzo

Basic Member
Posts:364

11/23/2004 6:19 PM
Annoys me because bands who have front men who go mad on stage have always been deadly. Bands with singers who are static are boring to look at for 2 hours.

Binokular

Veteran Member
Posts:1665

11/23/2004 6:42 PM
Fair enough, hanging on to that guitar does slow one down a bit when attempting your best Iggy Pop impersonation. The thing is, I assume most bands have the singer play guitar out of neccesity. The typical rock band (unless they are playing stripped down garage or punk) usually has a drummer, Bass player, rhythm and lead guitarists, with the rhythm guitar usually played by whoever plays vocals. The band will usually write and arrange their songs with that in mind, so onstage you need two guitars. the solution would be either strip down your songs so you only need one guitar or rope in a fifth band member. The problem is then is that the band get too clever by half and think "ok, now we can have rhythm, a lead part and an additional harmony" (a la radiohead) and you end up back at square one...

Optimus

Basic Member
Posts:312

11/24/2004 9:17 AM
what i find more irksome is that most irish bands lack that sense of drive. Theres no power to the songs. I'm not saying that all needs to sound like kerbdog or the mexican pets, but a little strength would be nice. I'm tired of this nice boy attitude where everything is simplified and acoustic. Music is art. Art is emotiove. I find that the irish music scene currently has no emotion. Since when is having a lack of emotion a good thing? Since when is banality a good thing? Rant over.

bear

New Member
Posts:57

11/24/2004 11:13 AM
i see where you're going optimus...this is worth reading. but i wouldn't say it's a lack of emotion, rather a different way of expressing it- granted it does seem to be all about quiet angry moodiness or quiet sweet loveliness these days, and a bit of variety would be nice,a bit of volume and honesty!! i think a lot of musicians are afraid to be honest, and you only really tend to get all out powerful angry music in ireland a) if it's a post rock thing with no vocals and the band don't need to be embarrased and really put themselves out there, or b) if the band is very stylised and american sounding (including the singers accent), turning the whole thing into a sort of pastiche or performance(you know the sense i mean), and sapping any honesty from the music, thereby once again protecting the band from really putting THEMSELVES out there. the guitar thing may be part of this. i think a lot of frontpeople in this country hide behind their guitars. it's okay if you're DOING something- (hard at it on the auld guitar there eh?)-but showing off?- who do you think you are there, jimbob? that guy's a wker. maybe it has something to do with ireland being such a small place. the tide is turning but people may still be a little afraid of the old parochial thing..."there's ur man...tha fella's an eejit" - and everyone knowing who they are. a city like new york, for example is a lot more anonymous. culturally, the irish tend to dislike people who act "full of it". even if someone asks how you are, you're not supposed to say "great"- "absolutely fantastic","and how are you donig, i hope everything is going great for you" etc. honestly you know the kind of reation that gets- yer man wha? full of ste. you are supposed to say(i'm talking traditionally here, it's changing slowly) things like- "not too bad" (but bad nonetheless) "alright" (i suppose) "can't complain" (although i have cause) "grand" (this as we know, means only okay in ireland) a nation of begrudgers-unless success is imported back into this country from elsewhere. then it's okay-- he has a big job in the london now, ten men under 'im- by god! then you have to respect them even if you hate them. this probably needs a lot more to make it a fully rounded argument, but you see what i'm getting at. anyone agree? ( i promise there will be no more super long posts from me) rant only just beginning.

bonzo

Basic Member
Posts:364

11/24/2004 11:35 AM
I see where this thread is going. I do agree that singers are hiding behind their guitar. I actually can't think of an Irish band that has a singer who gives it loads. The Rags maybe?

Binokular

Veteran Member
Posts:1665

11/24/2004 11:51 AM
How about Neosupervital? Seems to have absolutely no problem entertaining the crowds, doing his best Prince impersonation, etc. despite being a one man band lumbered with a midi guitar and a load of electronic gear. Incidentally, he gets major Kudos for almost making Midi guitars cool

herbie

New Member
Posts:23

11/24/2004 11:57 AM
Your man from Lazarus Soul gives it loads. Then again he is backed up by the lads from Future Kings Of Spain so he can concentrate on the singing.

mutch

Basic Member
Posts:392

11/24/2004 12:12 PM
in fairness i think ye are ignoring the world of country and traditional music. anyone ever see frankie lane (meath country artist, excellent, funny. impersonates someone impersonating a country star but is quality. see smoke at old el paso for introduction) playing live? hes mad. well he was at least. he used to front the fleadh cowboys. in general there arent alot of mad front men (sam snort asked the question where are they gone there afew months back in hot press) which is strange for a country full of lunatics. (see the dail and/or scene outside any bar on sat night and most taxi drivers for proof!)

Binokular

Veteran Member
Posts:1665

11/24/2004 12:36 PM
quote: Originally posted by mutch in general there arent alot of mad front men (sam snort asked the question where are they gone there afew months back in hot press) which is strange for a country full of lunatics. (see the dail and/or scene outside any bar on sat night and most taxi drivers for proof!) best Dr Phil from Oprah voice "we just need to channel all that negative energy into something productive"

Optimus

Basic Member
Posts:312

11/24/2004 1:10 PM
Bear- I appreciate what you're getting at but it still doesnt strike at the heart of the issue. Rock is the only truthful music that there is, you know? Making it bland and uninvolving decimates what rock and/or roll stands for, in whatever format it comes out. We've gone from the likes of Led Zepp, Blue Oyster Cult...even the Beatles(who I cant stand) to the likes of the Frames. Now I know the bands I've mentioned as positives arent Irish. But thats not the point. Music is on it's arse. It has been for almost a decade. It's been consistantly bone with only a handful of actually good acts with passion and fire to come in and out of the scene every so often. This is an argument I had on cluas about 4 years ago. The only honest musicians are good old fashioned rock artists like the above mentioned bands and others like Guns N' Roses, Alice In Chains etc. Whats predominant these days is that kinda coldplay influenced slow "rock" or techno based pop/dance. Thats not music. Music should elevate and inspire. And rock is the last great hope for keeping music going. But even rock is dying a death. Even the so called metal/rock acts that are known as "nu-metal" bands are delivering the final blows to what was once the greatest music on the planet. It's devestating to see this kind of neglect and compliance with banality corrupt the finest, most artistic and honest music in the world. Anyway, that last paragraph was too biblical for even me. roots through his old record collection Oh yes - A bit of the Zepp.

Binokular

Veteran Member
Posts:1665

11/24/2004 1:19 PM
quote: Originally posted by Optimus Whats predominant these days is that kinda coldplay influenced slow "rock" or techno based pop/dance. Techno/Dance Predominant? Are ya mad? Maybe you didn't notice Cream closing, Muzik magazine going to the wall (still miss it) and the Chemical Brothers forthcoming album being described as a comeback album. Old fashioned Rock the only honest music? I don't think you have to think too hard about that to realise that that is rubbish, not least because its a ridiculously western culture-centric view of the world.

Optimus

Basic Member
Posts:312

11/24/2004 1:39 PM
Ooooh...Abrasive. I think you'll find that if YOU indeed think about it, I'm right.

Binokular

Veteran Member
Posts:1665

11/24/2004 1:44 PM
Er, your mum! Come on, thats not much of a counter argument. People have been making music for thousands of years, wherever there is human life, theres music, its a part of what we are. Yet you're telling me that AC/DC style rock and roll is the only truly honest music out there?

Optimus

Basic Member
Posts:312

11/24/2004 1:57 PM
No. I said only GOOD rock and roll artists tell the truth. There's weakness in all variants of music. It's just that right now, music is generally, across the spectrum, VEEEEERY weak. Except for maybe Vanessa Mae.

Unicron

Veteran Member
Posts:1696

11/24/2004 2:07 PM
quote: Originally posted by Optimus No. I said only GOOD rock and roll artists tell the truth. There's weakness in all variants of music. It's just that right now, music is generally, across the spectrum, VEEEEERY weak. NO Only "GOOD" rock and roll artists tell the truth TO YOU. But when you think about it there are very few absolute truths in the universe and what you percieve to be truth is only that, a perception. You seem to be arguing that you have to rock to tell the truth, I'd say that a musician only has to honestly articulate how they see the world to do so. But then again, I like the whiney singer-songwriter thing.

Optimus

Basic Member
Posts:312

11/24/2004 2:30 PM
I'm not saying you have to rock. I love Nick Kershaw, and apart from one or two typical pop songs, he had his finger on the cold pulse of the eighties. What I am saying is that whiney singer/songwriter stuff is exactly what it is. Whiney. Theres no balls in music anymore. No testosterone. No aggression. Which is when music is at it's emotional best. When the music is truly painful or aggressive, weither it be a riff or the singer or sometimes both, thats when the best s*t comes out. See the rolling stones, led zepp, guns n' roses et al for more details. This pathetic persona that graces the whiney singer/songwrtier stuff is just poor. It doesnt inspire me or anyone I know, and my friends, who range broadley in musical tastes, dont get anything from it. They feel its coldness as much as I do. I miss extremely creative music, most of which was last heard mid to late 90's, and even then only in dribs and drabs. sigh*

Binokular

Veteran Member
Posts:1665

11/24/2004 2:35 PM
quote: Originally posted by Optimus No. I said only GOOD rock and roll artists tell the truth. There's weakness in all variants of music. Ok, that sounds a little more blanced, but I'll remind you that you said "Rock is the only truthful music that there is, you know?" which is plainly untrue. Now I don't agree with Unicrons idea of relative truth, but lets not get into a discussion on philosophy and theology. What I do agree with is that it only depends on the artists ability to articulate that, or perhaps not articulate it even? Maybe the only truly honest music is the little songs kids make up to amuse themselves.

Optimus

Basic Member
Posts:312

11/24/2004 2:41 PM
Possibly. But I did mean in relative context to the waves and pulses of music we've been having since the mid 90's. Right about then was when Pop & dance took over as the predominant music types. In the 80's it was more in balance. So, mid-90's rockers were the ones to go to for the truth, from whatever point of view it's delivered. Iron Maiden, Megadeth and Poison not withstanding!

bear

New Member
Posts:57

11/24/2004 3:52 PM
sorry optimus.... someone mentioned neosupervital? i have to (mis)quote him and say that optimus is a rock fascist. i go along with the relative truth thing. objective standards of good and bad imply some system or standard (which we have all agreed upon) by which music can be deemed bad or good, independent of "our relative truths", or the location of our preferences on said objective contuim of goodness and badness. the pop-charts is the closest thing music has to that, and i for one will never argue that something being at number one makes it "the best", in fact i would argue that the notion of "the best" in music is total nonsense, and is culturally as well as personally defined. "favourite" -now that's the word we need to use. your view of g'n'r type cock-rock as the only true music is a nonsense and an ugly anglo-centirc view, especially since the alternatives we discuss here are not really very diverse, are they? anyway jibberjabberjibberjabberjib. jab. i know i said i wouldn't put another long post. sorry. you gots to let it out.and we're not here to discuss philosophy, but as nietzsche wrote: "every instinct which does not vent itself externally turns inwards, and it is at this point, the "internalisation of man", that what has come to be known as "the soul" first develops in man". so there. oh, and nietzsche LOVED wagner:)

Optimus

Basic Member
Posts:312

11/24/2004 3:59 PM
quote: Originally posted by bear i have to (mis)quote him and say that optimus is a rock fascist. your view of g'n'r type cock-rock as the only true music is a nonsense and an ugly anglo-centirc view, especially since the alternatives we discuss here are not really very diverse, are they? First of all, I'm not a rock facist. My music ranges from classical to SOME pop. True rock is my first love, but I do enjoy the odd tidbit from the rest of the spectrum every now and then. And guns n' roses arent cock rock. Posion, Twisted Sister, Skid Row, Motley Crue, AC/DC...these bands are cock rock. Guns N' Roses were something more than any of these. Not so much the first 2 records, but definately the Use Your Illusions records, which dealt with similar topics and events that all the precious 70's rock bands did, but with more flavour. But I would rather listen to cock rock if given the choice between that or the frames/coldplay/keane...they all sound the same to me anyway.

mick

Basic Member
Posts:411

11/24/2004 4:43 PM
bands with frontmen who dont play guitar and go crazeeee on stage are often more enjoyable to watch alright but most of the time wouldnt be my style of music to listen to on record.

bonzo

Basic Member
Posts:364

11/24/2004 8:58 PM
quote: Originally posted by mick bands with frontmen who dont play guitar and go crazeeee on stage are often more enjoyable to watch alright but most of the time wouldnt be my style of music to listen to on record. Mick surely that doesn't make sense - whether the singer plays guitar or not doesn't make a difference to the style of music. Damon Albarn, Bono etc. all play guitar but usually perform live in the most part without it.

Optimus

Basic Member
Posts:312

11/25/2004 8:33 AM
Yeah I agree. Your post confuses yet arouses me Mick.

kierry

Basic Member
Posts:244

11/25/2004 10:52 AM
quote: Originally posted by Optimus I appreciate what you're getting at but it still doesnt strike at the heart of the issue. Rock is the only truthful music that there is, you know? Making it bland and uninvolving decimates what rock and/or roll stands for, in whatever format it comes out. We've gone from the likes of Led Zepp, Blue Oyster Cult...even the Beatles(who I cant stand) to the likes of the Frames. Now I know the bands I've mentioned as positives arent Irish. But thats not the point. Music is on it's arse. It has been for almost a decade. It's been consistantly bone with only a handful of actually good acts with passion and fire to come in and out of the scene every so often. This is an argument I had on cluas about 4 years ago. The only honest musicians are good old fashioned rock artists like the above mentioned bands and others like Guns N' Roses, Alice In Chains etc. Whats predominant these days is that kinda coldplay influenced slow "rock" or techno based pop/dance. Thats not music. Music should elevate and inspire. And rock is the last great hope for keeping music going. But even rock is dying a death. Even the so called metal/rock acts that are known as "nu-metal" bands are delivering the final blows to what was once the greatest music on the planet. It's devestating to see this kind of neglect and compliance with banality corrupt the finest, most artistic and honest music in the world. Anyway, that last paragraph was too biblical for even me. roots through his old record collection Oh yes - A bit of the Zepp. haha!! this is the most pompus post ever. i commend you for it sir!

Optimus

Basic Member
Posts:312

11/25/2004 12:14 PM
Thank you I think.

bear

New Member
Posts:57

11/25/2004 1:10 PM
no! surely no-one can out-pomp the bear?! i've been usurped. a thousand curses on you optimus!!!

Optimus

Basic Member
Posts:312

11/25/2004 1:31 PM
quote: Originally posted by bear no! surely no-one can out-pomp the bear?! i've been usurped. a thousand curses on you optimus!!! I'm not going to retaliate. I'm above it. Dont cry....dammit. I promised myself i wouldnt do this.

mick

Basic Member
Posts:411

12/1/2004 1:37 PM
quote: Originally posted by bonzo quote: Originally posted by mick bands with frontmen who dont play guitar and go crazeeee on stage are often more enjoyable to watch alright but most of the time wouldnt be my style of music to listen to on record. Mick surely that doesn't make sense - whether the singer plays guitar or not doesn't make a difference to the style of music. Damon Albarn, Bono etc. all play guitar but usually perform live in the most part without it. sorry only saw this now. i'll clarify for you what i meant... you were saying singers that go mad on stage, there are a few great bands around dublin like the things etc who have great frontmen and are a real pleasure to watch, but arent the style of music i'm into. i dont know why it is but most of the bands that i truely enjoy have frontmen who play guitar... radiohead/blur... both play guitar and are incredibly enjoyable to watch live and when they arent playing guitar and are going crazy onstage they're still enjoyable to watch but not anymore so for me if ya get me.

Dromed

Advanced Member
Posts:900

12/1/2004 3:30 PM
So...getting back to the issue of'Front men/women' - How about a poll? Who would you name as your favourite: 1) Irish frontman/woman of all time 2) Favourite non-Irish frontman/woman We'll see from the answers if playing the guitar/other instrument, while fronting, has any bearing on peoples choices..... To kick off my choices would be... 1)Mik Pyro - Republic of Loose 2)Jarvis Cocker - Pulp

Unicron

Veteran Member
Posts:1696

12/1/2004 3:53 PM
1) Paul Noonan 2) Thom Yorke Both occasional guitarists during gigs.

bonzo

Basic Member
Posts:364

12/1/2004 4:08 PM
1) Bono 2) Mick Jagger

Karlito

Basic Member
Posts:210

12/1/2004 4:21 PM
Frontman: In his days with the Verve Richard Ashcroft Frontwoman: Can't think right now, but not really a front woman as such but PJ Harvey Also must give a mention to Keith Flint and Maxim from Prodigy, while neither are front men, they are very exciting to watch live

mutch

Basic Member
Posts:392

12/1/2004 4:29 PM
Mike Patton Sharon Shannon

spurtacus

Basic Member
Posts:229

12/1/2004 4:31 PM
gonna be witnessin the prodigy tear the olympia apart on the 11th, cant f**kin wait for it, Fave frontman today is Guy McKnight of 80's matchbox, Frontwoman: Alison Goldfrapp

Karlito

Basic Member
Posts:210

12/1/2004 4:33 PM
Good man Spurtacus on the Prodigy..... Any word on support???

Optimus

Basic Member
Posts:312

12/2/2004 8:44 AM
Irish front person: And Kearns Non Irish Front Person: Axel Rose/Rod Jackson

maccor

New Member
Posts:69

12/2/2004 4:13 PM
back to the questiuon of why irish bands have a singer who plays guitar. there is a reason for this methinks. IN three piece bands, singers can be either bassists, drummer or indeed guitarists. actually, usually bassists or guitarists but halite for example have a drummer who now plays guitar singing - though they arent a 3 piece. anyway, normally I suspect what happens is that the singer gets to play the easiest instrument, normally rhythm guitar - somethign that if they arent playing it no-one notices, but if there are stages in a tune where it needs an extra guitar, normally when theres no vocals, then the best man or woman for the job is the vocalist cus they'd be doing feck all anyway at that stage.

Binokular

Veteran Member
Posts:1665

12/2/2004 4:22 PM
Yep, mind you, looking at the "Musicians wanted" section of these boards, theres no shortage of guitarists. Come on all you people in bands, give all those orphaned guitarists a home, theres always room for one more. Help lower the guitarist to bass player/drummer ratio. And remember kids, a guitarist is not just for Christmas....

maccor

New Member
Posts:69

12/2/2004 4:24 PM
good bass players and drummers - regardless of the standard jokes about them - are damned hard to find.

bonzo

Basic Member
Posts:364

12/2/2004 4:59 PM
quote: Originally posted by maccor good bass players and drummers - regardless of the standard jokes about them - are damned hard to find. Say guitarists and songwriters who have a sound in their head and can't play drums and bass.

Binokular

Veteran Member
Posts:1665

12/2/2004 5:02 PM
Learn... or get a drum machine, or Reason 2.5 and a laptop or something.

maccor

New Member
Posts:69

12/2/2004 5:03 PM
bassplayers and drummers are just as good at writing songs though. actually, usually better in my experience.

maccor

New Member
Posts:69

12/2/2004 5:04 PM
more vibe y'see

mutch

Basic Member
Posts:392

12/2/2004 5:22 PM
call me suspicious, but are you a bass player and/or a drummer? who writes songs? with vibe?

maccor

New Member
Posts:69

12/2/2004 5:28 PM
ah haa - but i also sing and play guitar

maccor

New Member
Posts:69

12/2/2004 5:29 PM
please note though, all this is tongue in cheek. actually, what the hell does that really mean anyway? how does having your tongue in your cheek explain anything?

Optimus

Basic Member
Posts:312

12/3/2004 8:53 AM
I'm a very good bassist and a good drummer. WHAT? I AM!!! Theres no ego in music anymore. Everyones too nice.

mutch

Basic Member
Posts:392

12/3/2004 9:14 AM
optimus, out of curiosity, where did you get that signature?

Optimus

Basic Member
Posts:312

12/3/2004 12:15 PM
Why? Meh...i'll tell you anyways...It's from "Me, Myself & Irene". Its something Hank says when he's trying to score.

mutch

Basic Member
Posts:392

12/3/2004 12:50 PM
the reason i ask is related to a story where somebody used that to actually chat up a girl after a gig. i swear to god its true. oh how she laughed and told everyone within 10 feet of where she was standing!

Optimus

Basic Member
Posts:312

12/3/2004 1:15 PM
poor bastard...

mutch

Basic Member
Posts:392

12/3/2004 4:46 PM
Yeah i was pretty cut up! haha

Optimus

Basic Member
Posts:312

12/4/2004 8:41 AM
No I meant poor bastard for thinking a line like that would work. It'd only bring one of two things. Embarrasment, or the chick would laugh and instantly consider him to be a friend. But it wouldnt end up with sex at the end of any night.

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