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Last Post 9/28/2004 11:12 AM by  Dabullets
PROPOSED NEW PUB AND CLUB CLOSING TIMES
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Dabullets
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9/28/2004 11:12 AM
    EVERYTHING TO SHUT AT 1:30am!!! As most of you are probably aware by now, the Gardai are planning to shut down every pub and club in the country at 1:30 am in a bid to curb alcohol related crimes. Senior Gardai have been holding secret talks for a number of weeks now and the way they intend to do this by opposing the renewals of all bar/club extensions in court this Wednesday. The very slightly staggered closing hours we currently have in Dublin slightly eases the problem of having everybody on the street at once but if this were to be introduced then it would logically, and ironically, probably make the situation even worse. 2am blanket closing hours have already been introduced in Cork and Limerick and reports say that it has clearly worsened the the end of night situation there. If this goes through then you will be out on the street with a lot of other frustrated and drunk people at 1:30am with no hope of a taxi home. If this goes through then there will potentially be up to 2000 people in Dublin alone, who work in the nightclub industry out of a job when their place of work closes as it is unable to compete. If this goes through, it will seriously affect the tourist industry. If this goes through then its curtains for going out in any serious way. Infact, this is more than about just going out, this is curtailment of your civil liberties. Were a great nation of moaners but this time we have to act. If we sit back on this then they will walk all over us. There is a growing tide of discontent already, and some of the things you can do already are... Sign the online petition It will only take a moment http://www.petitiononline.com/night269/petition.html Text Petition This has been setup by the Irish Nightclubs Association. Text dance + your name (i.e. dancejohndoe) to 51500 Radio Listen to the radio shows in the morning. Gerry Ryan on 2FM (90fm) Pat Kenny on RTE1 (88fm), Newstalk (106fm) and whatever else you listen to across the country. This will be a hot topic over the next week or so and its important that people know we care. There was already a poll done on the Gerry Ryan show today and there was an overwhelming 'no' vote against all this (only 1 person voted yes!) so people are getting motivated on this. Email Email all your friends about this. This effects everybody, no matter where they go out. Tell them about the petitions and radio. Its so important people don't get complacent on this. Media In the form of letters to the editor etc. Let them know how you are thinking. Some people you could email are... ray@todayfm.com michael.cahill@tv3.ie dunphy@newstalk106.ie dave@2FM.ie gerryryan@2fm.ie If anyone else can think of any ways that we can make our voice heard please post on this thread. Thanks.
    Brain of G
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    9/28/2004 11:34 AM
    It's a f**king outrage what this government are doing to us. I was on holiday in Italy recently where they serve alcohol through the night and there's never any trouble. Closing all licensed premises at 01.30 will not solve any problems, just make everything worse.
    Optimus
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    9/28/2004 11:40 AM
    Last time I was in a pub in Dublin it closed at midnight. When did i change to a later time and why's there an outrage on pubs staying open until 1.30am? I'd be happy for the extra hour & a half pub time.
    Binokular
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    9/28/2004 11:44 AM
    Optimus, this will affect clubs and music venues too. Thats the real issue here, it won't have much of an effect on your conventional pubs. Ireland has no proper licensing structure in place for clubs, they basically operate on a combination of different licenses, well so I've been told anyway.
    Optimus
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    9/28/2004 11:49 AM
    But dont most gigs finish around 12.30 anyway? I cant sympathise with the nightclub scene because it's not MY scene.
    john@soundweb.ie
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    9/28/2004 11:49 AM
    nothing the gardai do surprises me anymore - this is such a shortsighted approach to the matter. anything to avoid having to do any real work by the boys and girls in blue. we all see the gardai avoiding the hotspots at night time - why do taxi ranks go unmanned when they are so obviously dangerous after closing time?? NEWSFLASH! this won't change by bringing the time forward! this will truly become the age of the house party and off-licences will stand to make a killing - contributing once again to unsupervised drinking by all ages. the plan for winter 2004: 8pm - my gaff for a few, get a cheap buzz goin, smoke if ya want. 10pm - 1am - lets go to the pub, and see how many pints we can get in before the taliban closes the bar. better make them shorts in fact. 1.30am - back to whose gaff? ok. damn nitelink is full. 1.31am - hey man, thats our taxi. 1.33am - ouch. ouch. 3.25am - sorry we're late, no taxi's. any ice for my face? 3.30am - call the guards? for what?! they're all in bed by now and i dont feel like being treated a villain for calling them.
    Eric
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    9/28/2004 12:48 PM
    I think the gardi and government should focus their energy on solving the heroin problem in Ireland first. I don't have any facts or figures but I'm pretty sure heroin in the cities its the major source of crime in Dublin at the moment. Also, I agree with you John, closing the bars early will just brings back the messin by a couple of hours.
    Vent My Spleen
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    9/28/2004 1:00 PM
    Here is a radical suggestion - why don't they arrest the 5% of trouble makers rather than victimising the 95% of us who enjoy our few pints and don't feel the need to kick seven shades of sh*te out of random punters. A simple question - when is the last time anyone saw a garda after 10PM in Dublin? They should be out there, locking the chavs up, hitting them with big fines rather than thinking up rediculous suggestions like this . McDowel would want to take a long hard look at his actions. Kill Happy hours - zero impact. No cheap booze - zero impact. The reason the licening hours were extended a few years ago was to ensure that everyone wasn't chucked out at the same time...now this? They should start doing what they are supposed to do which is police the community rather than trying every avenue to avoid it. /rant
    klootfan
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    9/28/2004 1:26 PM
    The main reason Ireland has such a drinking problem is because of a time limit on drinking. You are told that you are only allowed to drink between x and y and therefore people try and drink as much as they can in that time period. If we had 24 hour drinking then over time ( it might take a few years) things would take a turn for the better. there is bound to be an initial abuse of it, thats to be expected, but lets face it, we wont all be wandering into work at 9.30 everyday of the week just after leaving the night club. We wont have the energy for it. The problem of violence on the streets at night is a combination of too much alcohol and the fact that thousands of people are thrown on to the streets at the same time fighting for the same food joints and taxis. Its crazy. When one of the main streets in dublin, dame st, is busier at 3am in the morning the 1.30 on a sat, then you know you have a problem. As for the Gardai, what right have they to trying an enforce a self made moral rule on us. Only a month or two ago they were raiding night clubs in galway for shows they felt were not fit for public consumption, however, when was the last time you saw a politicians house raided for planning corruption. I blame Michael McDull (sic) myself, i used to have a lot of respect for him, but now i wouldnt give him the time of day. How does he, as a non drinking, know how to solve the binge drinking problems of the country. Its one more nail in the coffin of our freedom to live our lives our own way without interference from politicians.
    Brain of G
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    9/28/2004 2:09 PM
    Next I suppose they'll ban socialising altogether. That way there'll be no alcohol-related violence etc. There are people out there who criticise people like George W Bush yet go out and vote for Fianna Fail. Maybe they deserve what they get
    mutch
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    9/28/2004 2:11 PM
    it'll happen, but it wont last. tourism will be compensated by what...oh yes , the hunt. sweet. nice one. pd's=scum of earth. uot in the next election with the help of god.
    El Duderino
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    9/28/2004 2:15 PM
    It's just another one of those cop outs that the Irish government always seem to go for. Instead of tackling a problem at root level they come up with big plans to change society in a matter of weeks. It's totally unrealistic as it goes against every grain of human nature to change that quickly. Education about drink and all the other social problems that we face today is the only way I see us being able to make posetive changes. Draconian laws just put everyones' back up, introducing another reason to adopt the "I'll show him" attitude is not what this country needs. The publicans have to take their share of responsibility for this aswell though. They're perfectly happy to get someone jarred but if that person starts trouble they're straight out on the street to cause more trouble there. Something does have to be done about the situation in Dublin city on weekend nights but a knee jerk reaction like this is not the answer
    Optimus
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    9/28/2004 2:40 PM
    Thats why I moved out of Ireland.
    El Duderino
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    9/28/2004 2:42 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Optimus
    Thats why I moved out of Ireland.
    Drinking or consistently stupid governments?
    Optimus
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    9/28/2004 2:48 PM
    I dont like even the most remotely suppressive government. I used to love Dublin, then the Celtic Tiger came along and wrecked it. Now it's over crowded, over rude(generally) and it doesnt know it's arse from it's elbow. I had to get out. S'why I moved to Manchester.
    El Duderino
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    9/28/2004 2:50 PM
    I would've thought that would've been a case of out of the frying pan into the fire. There must be some pretty draconian laws over there to counteract terrorism?
    mutch
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    9/28/2004 3:00 PM
    Dublin is grand if you can ignore all the idiots eating al fresco (next to a busy street with artic trucks spewing fumes onto their paninis!!i ask you?) gettin out of yer hed is one of the things that makes us irish in the eyes of many europeans ive met.(you know, real europeans, from like spain and such) mcdull is part o fthe ascendancy class so he doesnt like the irish tag. born in a barn doesnt mean im a donkey and all that rubbish. i do think its silly though. i went to college. i still cant afford a car, a house, and now i wont be able to go our and get messed up to compensate for this? other than the great countryside we have that thankfully most people dont seem to be aware of, this country has very little to offer anymore other than tax breaks for multinationals and a relaxed attitude to serious matters and a hysterical attitude to light hearted matter. still love it here though, its like living in a truman show esque comedy of errors!!! sorry, im on the cofee again.
    Rev Jules
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    9/28/2004 3:32 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Dabullets
    EVERYTHING TO SHUT AT 1:30am!!! As most of you are probably aware by now, the Gardai are planning to shut down every pub and club in the country at 1:30 am in a bid to curb alcohol related crimes.
    Glad to hear it. About time something was done about booze related crime in this country. I hope it is not the last measure to be taken. We should pause to remember a young man called Brian Murphy who was kicked to death outside a prominent Dublin night club few years ago. I often drive home late at night from work through the centre of the city at the weekend and the roads and pavements are awash with drunks. I think the Gardai could be a lot tougher than they are at the moment in this area and I have no sympathy for nightclub owners or publicans.
    mutch
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    9/28/2004 3:44 PM
    you think beer is the reason he died?
    mutch
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    9/28/2004 3:49 PM
    sorry, i cant wait for your reply. I myself blame television and rap cds. sorry, must make myself clear here. if being out late and drunk is all it takes to turn a human into a murderer then what kind of faith can you have in the species? sick is sick, beer doesnt change that.
    spurtacus
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    9/28/2004 4:04 PM
    whatever the reason,closing pubs and clubs early is hardly the answer now is it?
    Binokular
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    9/28/2004 4:15 PM
    And more to the point, Jules do you actually think these rules will make the streets safer? I think that its good that someone is standing up and saying, "hey we have a problem" rather than trying to avoid it and I really sympathise with the family of Brian Murphy, but this is probably not the best way to tackle the issue. The thing is, if you limit the amount of time people can have on a night out. I think this will lead to an even less relaxed atmosphere with more emphasis on "getting the pints in" while you can rather than just relaxing, socialising and having a good time. Cork has had the blanket closures at 2AM for a while and from personal experience, I don't think this has improved things in the slightest. If anything its made them worse.
    The_Thin_Man
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    9/28/2004 4:23 PM
    While I'd oppose in principle the actions of the police in this regard, it's simply not good enough to pile abuse upon them, and the State, without taking responsibility for our own actions. We have the second highest level of ethyl alcohol consumption in the EU -13 pure litres of the stuff for every adult every year. Alcohol related admissions to NEHB hospitals are up 80 per cent in the past 12 months. Neither the cops, nor McDowell, are forcing the stuff down our throats. At some point people will have to face the fact that, first and foremost, it's drinking to excess, and not the time the publican closes the till, that leads to the problems on Dame Street and other places. Of course a 1.30am booze curfew is ludicrous in a Western European society in 2004. But so is the soddom and gomorrah situation on the streets, even with staggered closing times. More and more people are rightly avoiding both by just staying at home. Also, it makes me laugh to see nightclub owners/companies initiating petitions on this matter. The same individuals/interests have been ripping off their customers for years. Now the greedy b*stards have copped a quick PR mechanism. By all means register a protest, but not through such channels as cited above.
    Optimus
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    9/28/2004 4:26 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by El Duderino
    I would've thought that would've been a case of out of the frying pan into the fire. There must be some pretty draconian laws over there to counteract terrorism?
    You'd be surprised my friend. People are friendlier over here. More adaptable. It might've something to do with the stiff upper lip but my best mate, who's OIRISH, moved to Glasgow to find work. He came down here and couldnt believe how welcoming all my english mates were towards him. We both agreed that it was like how Dublin used to be. I love it here. Sure I miss Ireland. Sometimes, more than I care to admit. But it's changed so vastly that I dont reckon I could ever go back there to live. It's too hectic. You walk around here at midnite and it's quite. people are already in pubs and clubs. They're not roaming the streets endlessly like they do in Dublin. I'm not going to get into a "Bolton is better than Dublin" debate because it's not. Home is still home. But Bolton/Manchester, is a challenger.
    spurtacus
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    9/28/2004 4:41 PM
    unfortunately i dont think there is a quick fix solution to the problem. The problem lies deep in the mentality of yer typical 'scanger'(burberry cap at 45 degree angle,bumfluff moustache,straightleg jeans,big runners etc,)There is simply no accounting for this type of person,simple as
    Binokular
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    9/28/2004 4:50 PM
    Spurtacus, we've all encountered the type you talk about and yeah, they exist, but thats just lazy stereotyping. Gotta agree with Thin Man, we all have got to take responsibility for our own actions and blaming the problem on one group, real or imaginary, achieves nothing.
    mutch
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    9/28/2004 4:53 PM
    yeah, in fairness like you should only be allowed drink late if your a certain type of person. we could introduce etiquitte and behavioural classes in school so people know how to speak and dress in a manner that is acceptable. im more afraid of the rugby types, they can actaully hurt you when they hit you. skangers just kind of bounce off me. im, er, kind of "jolly". as in im a big fatty!haha.
    Brain of G
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    9/28/2004 5:05 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by spurtacus
    unfortunately i dont think there is a quick fix solution to the problem. The problem lies deep in the mentality of yer typical 'scanger'(burberry cap at 45 degree angle,bumfluff moustache,straightleg jeans,big runners etc,)There is simply no accounting for this type of person,simple as
    Don't forget the Reebok hoodie and the jewellery!
    spurtacus
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    9/28/2004 5:08 PM
    oh yeh,the sovvies man,its all about the sovvies! they leave a lovely imprint on an unsuspecting forehead!
    Binokular
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    9/28/2004 5:13 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by spurtacus
    oh yeh,the sovvies man,its all about the sovvies! they leave a lovely imprint on an unsuspecting forehead!
    Haha, funnily enough, go to www.argos.co.uk and enter "chav" in the search box and see what comes up!
    spurtacus
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    9/28/2004 5:16 PM
    sweet jaysus,a ben sherman chain,i dunno whether to laugh or cry..........
    mutch
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    9/28/2004 5:37 PM
    ive never gotten hassle of these guys you speak of, touch wood, theyre intimadating OK, but dont they just beat up each other and stuff, maybe its me or maybe its the shotgun i often carry over my shoulders, but they dont bother me at all.
    Rev Jules
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    9/28/2004 5:42 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by mutch
    you think beer is the reason he died?
    If you are asking me, do I think alcohol was a contributing factor to his death. well, yes it was. And that is not simply a matter of opinion Mutch, it is a statement of fact. Alcohol was a major factor in the events that led to his death and was dealt as such in the ensuing criminal court case. Alcohol is also a contributing factor in surprisingly large number of cases of rape and domestic violence. Ireland has a serious problem with alcohol and alcohol related violence. This situation has existed in this country for so long that we are kind of blase about it, as we are about the fact that so many Irish people are unable to control their intake of it. When I stop seeing crowds of people staggering around the streets of Dublin at closing time like extras from a zombie movie, then I'll accept that we, as a nation, can handle booze responsibly and deserve the all night bars that we envy other countries having.
    Optimus
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    9/29/2004 8:40 AM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Binokular
    Spurtacus, we've all encountered the type you talk about and yeah, they exist, but thats just lazy stereotyping. Gotta agree with Thin Man, we all have got to take responsibility for our own actions and blaming the problem on one group, real or imaginary, achieves nothing.
    I'm sorry but I have to disagree, on many things. While it may be "lazy stereotyping", it often comes true that the stereotype is accurate never the less. Since when did you and your friends get smashed and pick a fight with someone just because they're a "smelly rocker" or "gayboy"? Weither you like it or not, the above stereotype is a major addition to the drink fuelled aggrivation that has ALWAYS happened on Dublins streets. And personally, if you find them intimidating, then you're giving them exactly what they want. I myself have never found them intimidating. I tended to answer them in dry wit or sarcasm that would confuse them and they'd end up playing nice. True we all have a responsibility to how much we drink etc and how we react with it in our systems but it's not our responsibility to police the few that go too far. These "scangers" have never shown me much compassion or feeling. They drink, get smashed, brawl and do it all again the nite after. Why should we suffer because of them? Mass ruling and social punishment/forced curfew(sp??) reminds me of a certain Nazi leader whose name shall go unmentioned. The police are paid to deal with scangers, scumbags et al so let 'em deal with it. I'm an adult, and if I want to stay out drinking until 3am in a club/pub, then I should bloody well be allowed to. I or anyone else who has an IQ of more than 30 should not suffer because of reckless, thoughtless idiots.
    El Duderino
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    9/29/2004 8:50 AM
    When I stop seeing crowds of people staggering around the streets of Dublin at closing time like extras from a zombie movie, then I'll accept that we, as a nation, can handle booze responsibly and deserve the all night bars that we envy other countries having. I agree with you wholeheartedly Jules. I don't see the point in going out getting absolutely wasted but it's a national pass time here. It probably has alot to do with the weather and lack of other recreational activities but alot of people feel that's what being Irish is all about. At the moment it would be a disaster to have all night bars in Ireland. I have to disagree with your defence of the blanket closing time. Brian Murphy was killed on the street and not in a pub so the introduction of this rule would not effect this type of tragedy. It would merely concentrate them all at a particular time of the night, thus leading to absolute chaos in the streets. I agree it is down to the individual to exercise their own responsibilty but I also think that the government and the gardai should be tackling this at a much more fundamental level than to simply crack down on drunken disorder. Make sure people know exactly what they are doing to themselves so they can make an informed descision as to whether to get blind drunk or not, provide alternative means of recreation, basically exhaust all avenues of approach before reverting to imposing curfew type measures
    mutch
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    9/29/2004 9:32 AM
    Bottom line: if people want to get out of their minds with beer they do not need a pub. Yeah we've a problem, but if it was a simple as changing the closing hours do you not think it would have been recommended a few times by someone neutral to our situation? personally i dont care, pub culture in the towns and cities is down on what it was up to 4 years ago.
    vandala
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    9/29/2004 12:16 PM
    Have to agree with Optimus. I left Dublin in May after having a nervous breakdown (I don't use the term lightly) brought on largely by the utter fecklessness of people in the city, both on a national (government, policy) and on a interpersonal (man on the street) level. I'm also now living in the north of England (Liverpool), and despite occasional bouts of homesickness, am healthier, happier, and slightly better off. The problem with the city is as much to do with middle-class people as it is "scangers"; it's more to do with the utter lack of civility and self-indulgence all round. Okay, it's fair enough that people are going to be fairly stressed-out in a city so infuriatingly congested as Dublin, but the problem runs far deeper than that, I think. The old constructions of nationality/community have run aground, and what's left is a free-for-all: a huge percentage of people are angry, disempowered, constantly broke, and working far, far too hard just to make the rent on some miserable apartment that they're being ripped off for. When they go out for the night, they get people shouting at them...shouting to finish up their drinks, hurry up in the queue, get out of the way, etc, etc. Is it any wonder people get into fights? A very small percentage of people got rich in the early nineties because of the property "boom" (an exercise in developer-led manipulation if there ever was one) and the result is the creation of a society where the only kinds of people that can get by are the very rich and the very poor (state benefits, social housing, etc). It seems to me that there will very shortly be no longer a working-class OR a middle-class in Dublin: there'll just be an underclass who simply won't work because it isn't worth their while, and as a result hate most of the corporate types they see swanning around who are the only people who can afford to live there. The middle-class won't be able afford to live in the city any more either: the civil servants, the teachers, etc, particularly if they have children: they're all starting to move to places like Mullingar, Dundalk, anyway. And what will be left, then? Good cappacino, I guess. In my book, alcohol is the least of our problems. If you need convincing, go and have a look at: a) cocaine use in the city b) car ownership statistics in the city (as high as 80% amongst adults in the GREATER Dublin area?!!?!!) c) A book called The Construction of Dublin by Frank McDonald which outlines the whole re-zoning of land business in the 1980s and how it directly relates to social problems the city is having at the moment. d) The obsession with house prices: I actually heard someone on 5/7 Live suggest that if you don't have a mortgage by the time you're 30 you're a loser. (Recalls Thatcher's affirmation that anyone using public transport by the time they're 30 is, similarly, a loser. Finally, a quote to counter-act all the so-called scanger-bashing here... "Greed is a great motivator of people", Dermot Desmond. (Eircom) Never thought I'd say it, but I'd flog my passport in a minute...
    vandala
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    9/29/2004 12:31 PM
    ...well, okay, maybe I was being a bit hasty saying I'd flog my passport, but it feels like that sometimes!
    Optimus
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    9/29/2004 12:43 PM
    Vandala I couldnt have put most of that better myself. When I first started going into Dublin, people were friendly, polite(ish) and relatively decent. When I went back about 2 years ago I had a panic attack. I felt outnumbered, outgunned and very much a small worm on a big f***ing hook. It really is a free for all. Kill or be killed. Thats not what life is about, if you can call it life, in Dublin. Funny setence that above..."You've been given a life sentence, in DUBLIN!!!!" Anyway, I'm alot happier in Manchester. I feel better. I dont feel worry, fear or pressure. I can do what I want, when I want. It's fantastic.
    mutch
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    9/29/2004 2:29 PM
    so we've deduced that its Dublin thats bad. theres a few other places on the island you know! haha. I've lived in a few places on the east coast since leaving home at 18 7 years ago and I have to say Dublin is the most insular of the 4 places I've lived. It's gas. Dont know what it means, just an observation. I like the old folks in Dublin, they're funny. You know, the ones that seem to be, possibly, grandparents of the white tracksuit wearing lads (always white tracksuits with the scum,anyone notice that?).
    Optimus
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    9/29/2004 3:18 PM
    You misunderstand. Dublin aint a bad place. The people within make it a bad place, government, scangers and the like.
    Rev Jules
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    9/29/2004 4:49 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by mutch
    Bottom line: if people want to get out of their minds with beer they do not need a pub. Yeah we've a problem, but if it was a simple as changing the closing hours do you not think it would have been recommended a few times by someone neutral to our situation?
    First of all, let me say that I find it very objectionable that Dabullets used a music website to try and trot out a line of propaganda for the vintners association. Especially when you consider the huge number of musicians whose careers were either damaged or ended prematurely through alcoholism. I shed no tears for the drink industry. They have profited to an incredible degree over the last number of years, certainly to the detriment of the health and well being of an increasingly precentage of our society. Second, I think those of you who think dabullets is right need to wise up. This is what Stephen Rowen, the Director of the Rutland Centre, a leading agency in Ireland for residential treatment of addiction, said in discussion about what needs to be done to tackle the chronic problem of alcohol abuse, "Rolling back the pub opening hours to where they were before the summer of 2000 would help". This is what the Irish Times said on the same subject, "The rise in alcohol consumption was facilitated by longer pub opening hours, introduced some years ago, and it has been reinforced by extensive advertising and promotional campaigns." This is how much we like our booze...Between 1989 and 1999 consumption of alcohol in Ireland increased by a staggering 41 per cent, bringing the country to the top of the European league. In the last thirty years consumption has tripled. So, little cronies for the drinks industry like dabullets and the semi literate mutts who 'support' him can go swing.
    Binokular
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    9/29/2004 5:13 PM
    Jules, great points, but just to get things away from heavy social issues for a bit and focus onto the the more shallow and admittedly trivial area of the music scene. How can the drink problem be tackled without killing off the club scene? Clubs without alcohol? Would it work? Kind of reminds me of the bizarre situation that my parents used to tell me about with the showbands in the sixties. I think they had to stop serving drink for an hour around midnight or something bizzare like that. Whats really needed is to be able to enable people having a night out and have a good time but without alcohol as the main focus. Are people capable of enjoying themselves without a drink? I know I can, because I was usually the only one amongst my friends with a car. Er.. Ok I'm rambling a bit and I'm not entirely sure of the point I'm trying to make, but I guess the question is can't we have fun without consuming large quantities of alcohol?
    mutch
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    9/29/2004 5:27 PM
    Jules, i represent no one but myself. Keep your suppositions private. Your unhelpful comment "semi literate mutts" fair comment some of us dont use puntuation etc. this is the internet though, thought you might have some accross that before, you want to express an opinion about members can i request you open a new topic. I stand by my comment about opening hours. Dealers of illegal drugs cannot open fullstop but yet many of my friends have suffered the ill effects of their products over time. Also, I dont think the changes in alchohol consumption should be isolated from the changes in Ireland in the same period. I think its totally useless to look at data in this fashion. I'm sure you'll throw something back at me for this. Go ahead. I'm just an seNi Lliterate mtOts. oops me spell rong.
    Vent My Spleen
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    9/29/2004 5:57 PM
    Jules, surely no more objectionable that trotting out Ministerial propaganda, no?
    Rev Jules
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    9/29/2004 7:42 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Vent My Spleen
    Jules, surely no more objectionable that trotting out Ministerial propaganda, no?
    Oh, I wan't quoting any Irish minister, I was quoting a person who helps addicts to overcome their addictions and a newspaper editor.
    Optimus
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    9/30/2004 8:27 AM
    This has just gotten WAY to heavy for me to be bothered.
    El Duderino
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    9/30/2004 9:10 AM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Rev Jules
    Originally posted by mutch
    Second, I think those of you who think dabullets is right need to wise up
    I agree with dabullets that it's wrong to have a blanket closing hour because this will lead to serious disorder in the city centre every weekend. Is that unreasonable? Jules, you don't seem to be taking a practical view of this situation. Fair enough, drink has contributed to the downfall of many a musician but some people just need something to get them through their lives. If it wasn't drink it'd be something else. I hold no sympathy for the drinks industry but I don't see them as evil pushers of alcohol trying to make everyone an alcoholic. As has been said before on this thread, everyone is responsible for their own actions and if this country wasn't so packed with selfish bastards, oblivious to the concept of considering other people, we wouldn't have this problem. The way it is at the moment, bringing forward the closing hour does not deal with the issue and standardising pub closing time on such a large scale will only lead to further, possibly much worse problems
    Rev Jules
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    9/30/2004 10:51 AM
    quote:
    Originally posted by El Duderino
    I agree with dabullets that it's wrong to have a blanket closing hour because this will lead to serious disorder in the city centre every weekend. Is that unreasonable? Jules, you don't seem to be taking a practical view of this situation. Fair enough, drink has contributed to the downfall of many a musician but some people just need something to get them through their lives. If it wasn't drink it'd be something else. I hold no sympathy for the drinks industry but I don't see them as evil pushers of alcohol trying to make everyone an alcoholic. As has been said before on this thread, everyone is responsible for their own actions and if this country wasn't so packed with selfish bastards, oblivious to the concept of considering other people, we wouldn't have this problem. The way it is at the moment, bringing forward the closing hour does not deal with the issue and standardising pub closing time on such a large scale will only lead to further, possibly much worse problems
    1) This is a music website. It is not a discussion board for subjects totally unrelated to music. If you want to get some facts about the matter before you start shooting, have a look at the statistics to be found at the following link http://www.healthpromotion.ie/topics/alcohol/alcofacts/statistics/#3 2) Dabullets was urging Cluas readers to sign a petition on behalf of an organisation called the Irish Nightclubs Association and he wrote that, "If this (the new pub/club closing times) goes through then there will potentially be up to 2000 people in Dublin alone, who work in the nightclub industry out of a job when their place of work closes as it is unable to compete". That sounds very like promoting the drinks industry's business interests to me. 3) We have seen the effects of more liberal opening hours over the last four years. It is a greater number of chronically drunk people. I assume that your solution to this is not to close pubs at all but, on past experience, all that is likely happen is that alcohol consumption will simply continue to rise. 4) I don't agree that these closing times are an infringement of civil liberties. What I do think is an infringement of our liberties is not being able to safely walk down a street at night because of the packs of male and female drunken louts roaming the city. Almost half of all crime in Ireland is alcohol related. Alcohol contributes to impulsive and aggressive behaviour. It also affects our ability to judge other people's behaviour and intent, together with impairing ability to foretell the consequences of our own actions. 5) If, as you say, Ireland is full of "selfish bastards" then we cannot leave it up to individual choice, we simply have to legislate to protect those who don't want to be harrased by drunks. In fact, if the Gardai parked paddy wagons outside night clubs and pubs and automatically arrested people who were obviously and seriously drunk, and then used such arrests to prosecute the publicans, I wonder how long it would be before things started to quieten down. The laws already exist to do that. Firstly, it is an offence for a licensee to permit drunkenness to take place in the bar of a licensed premises. Secondly, it is an offence for a person to be intoxicated in a public place to such an extent as would give rise to a reasonable apprehension that they might endanger themselves of any other person in the vicinity. I am going to go out on a limb here and make a prediction that, at some future point, someone is going to take a class action suit against those who manufacture and sell alcoholic beverages which is similar in outline to the law suits taken previously against Big Tobacco in the US. For those of you so interested, you can read the European Alcohol Action Plan 2000-2005 at the following weblink http://www.ias.org.uk/publications/theglobe/99issue4/globe9904_p7.html If this is the way that the EU is thinking about combating alcohol, earlier closing times are the least of the drinks industry's worries.
    mutch
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    9/30/2004 11:33 AM
    unreal. absoultly amazing. yuove provided me with alot of entertainment Julie.
    El Duderino
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    9/30/2004 11:34 AM
    As I said, I'm not gonna sign a petition that makes a publicans position any stronger. They have been more than willing to rip us off at every given opportunity. I never said I supported dabullets promotion of this petition but for purely practical reasons I don't think all pubs should close at the same time. What would your solution be? Shut the pubs altogether?? Due to the fact that this country is full of selfish bastards (a gross generalisation. It's just that the selfish bastards are the loudest and always get their way) it would be insane to dump such a large amount of drunk people with no concern for the well being of anyone else on the streets at the same time. Maybe that idea with the paddy wagon would work, or maybe the gardai would just antagonise people that are looking for agro already. Wholesale riots are hardly a posetive solution. I don't see someones right to get s**tfaced as a civil liberty either. Civil liberties would be infringed upon if this law gets passed however as I'm gonna be kicked out onto the streets at 1:30 along with the entire drunken contents of my chosen pub and every other pub. You honestly think violence won't erupt? (and erupt is the right word). Do I no longer have the right to have a few pints and go home without getting caught in the middle of the consequences of a short sighted law?
    Dabullets
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    9/30/2004 11:38 AM
    Jules, quick question for ye. the 2000 people in Dublin alone that could have lost their jobs if this proposal had of gone through, do you really think that they are concerned about the actual vintners association or the nightclubs accosiation and their lack of profits because of early closing hours or do you think that it might be because they are trying to make a living ? How many students etc work in these places to make the money to pay their bills. Maybe its just me but if we can keep people employed in this sector then we should be keeping them employed and not putting them back in the social welfare line, where the people of Ireland will end up paying even more money to support them. Just as well tho eh, as we wont need the money to go out as the pubs and clubs will be closing early. And for the record, I was urging people to sign any sort of petition, write letters or send mails to anyone in the public eye that might be able to voice the opinion and feelings of the majority of the people on the matter of more of their rights being infringed.
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    9/30/2004 11:46 AM
    Jesus Christ, it was a petition started by the publicans, fair enough, but it was also a way of people getting their feelings across about closing all pubs and clubs at the same time. I certainly dont agree with the practises of bar and club owners in this country and their years of complete disregard for the people that have been lining their pockets by pushing the prices up as far as they can until it has now reached crisis point. It is only because people have started sitting in more with take outs rather than going to pubs that they are now proposing price cuts because of falling profits. This was the people of Ireland and Dublin taking their own stance and this petition was another one. Some people do like to stay out later than 1.30am, obviously thats going to be in a licensed premises so even if this petition wasnt started by the nightclubs association and was started by another non licensed assosiated association then it would still be in the interest of the nightclubs associtation. So kinda like cutting your nose off to spite your face if you didnt want blanket closing times, but just wouldnt sign it because of who started it. Staggered times are the way forward, for the people that want to have a good time and not for the people making the money. Thats my say on it and my last post on it.
    Optimus
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    9/30/2004 1:57 PM
    I think you all need to relax. I understand the grievous situation at hand, y'know, being that irish bodies are 80% alcohol and all but I really do feel that this has gotten out of hand. Jesus it's just a discussion board weither it relates to music or not. Calm down lads.
    Binokular
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    9/30/2004 2:03 PM
    I dunno Optimus, better they get it all out of there system in here rather than on the street after they've got a few pints in them
    Rev Jules
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    9/30/2004 2:05 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by El Duderino
    As I said, I'm not gonna sign a petition that makes a publicans position any stronger. They have been more than willing to rip us off at every given opportunity. I never said I supported dabullets promotion of this petition but for purely practical reasons I don't think all pubs should close at the same time. What would your solution be? Shut the pubs altogether?? Due to the fact that this country is full of selfish bastards (a gross generalisation. It's just that the selfish bastards are the loudest and always get their way) it would be insane to dump such a large amount of drunk people with no concern for the well being of anyone else on the streets at the same time. Maybe that idea with the paddy wagon would work, or maybe the gardai would just antagonise people that are looking for agro already. Wholesale riots are hardly a posetive solution. I don't see someones right to get s**tfaced as a civil liberty either. Civil liberties would be infringed upon if this law gets passed however as I'm gonna be kicked out onto the streets at 1:30 along with the entire drunken contents of my chosen pub and every other pub. You honestly think violence won't erupt? (and erupt is the right word). Do I no longer have the right to have a few pints and go home without getting caught in the middle of the consequences of a short sighted law?
    El Dude, 1) I agree about not signing the petition. I wouldn't either. 2) I never said that you supported this petition. You clearly wrote that you agreed with dabullets instead on the issue that you were against a, "a blanket closing hour because this will lead to serious disorder in the city centre every weekend". I would say that we already have serious disorder in the city centre at the weekend which is why this earlier closing time is being introduced in the first place. 3) Yes, I agree that publicans and night club owners have been ripping off the public for years. 4) There is no quick fix solution to cutting the incidence of alcohol related violence but, yes, I do think that toughening up the closing hours is a step in the right direction, since relaxing them has only made the problem worse over the last few years. I can't see how staggered closing will reduce the problem either. The core issue is that a sizeable proportion of the public drink to excess and get agressive when they do so. The longer the opening hours, the more they will drink in public. Make the publican liable, impose fines in excess of € 50,000 per offence, rescind drinks licenses, you'll start to see publicans being alot more strict about enforcing existing law. 5) We concur about the lose of civil liberties through the antics of drunken eejits. It is they who are ultimately affecting your right to have a few quiet pints.
    Optimus
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    9/30/2004 2:07 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Binokular
    I dunno Optimus, better they get it all out of there system in here rather than on the street after they've got a few pints in them
    Mayhaps friend Bonkular, however there's garbage polluting the net and I'm sick of bad vibes. Life is far too short and I really think that while the enforcement side of it is something I dont agree with, there are more important in life than having your drinking time cut down by two hours. Y'know?
    Rev Jules
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    9/30/2004 2:08 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Optimus
    Jesus it's just a discussion board weither it relates to music or not. Calm down lads.
    Compared to the Damien Rice was of a few weeks back, this is quite tame. Remember them Doc ?
    Binokular
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    9/30/2004 2:11 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Optimus
    quote:
    Originally posted by Binokular
    I dunno Optimus, better they get it all out of there system in here rather than on the street after they've got a few pints in them
    Mayhaps friend Bonkular, however there's garbage polluting the net and I'm sick of bad vibes. Life is far too short and I really think that while the enforcement side of it is something I dont agree with, there are more important in life than having your drinking time cut down by two hours. Y'know?
    Amen Brother!
    El Duderino
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    9/30/2004 2:13 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Rev Jules
    quote:
    Originally posted by El Duderino
    As I said, I'm not gonna sign a petition that makes a publicans position any stronger. They have been more than willing to rip us off at every given opportunity. I never said I supported dabullets promotion of this petition but for purely practical reasons I don't think all pubs should close at the same time. What would your solution be? Shut the pubs altogether?? Due to the fact that this country is full of selfish bastards (a gross generalisation. It's just that the selfish bastards are the loudest and always get their way) it would be insane to dump such a large amount of drunk people with no concern for the well being of anyone else on the streets at the same time. Maybe that idea with the paddy wagon would work, or maybe the gardai would just antagonise people that are looking for agro already. Wholesale riots are hardly a posetive solution. I don't see someones right to get s**tfaced as a civil liberty either. Civil liberties would be infringed upon if this law gets passed however as I'm gonna be kicked out onto the streets at 1:30 along with the entire drunken contents of my chosen pub and every other pub. You honestly think violence won't erupt? (and erupt is the right word). Do I no longer have the right to have a few pints and go home without getting caught in the middle of the consequences of a short sighted law?
    El Dude, 1) I agree about not signing the petition. I wouldn't either. 2) I never said that you supported this petition. You clearly wrote that you agreed with dabullets instead on the issue that you were against a, "a blanket closing hour because this will lead to serious disorder in the city centre every weekend". I would say that we already have serious disorder in the city centre at the weekend which is why this earlier closing time is being introduced in the first place. 3) Yes, I agree that publicans and night club owners have been ripping off the public for years. 4) There is no quick fix solution to cutting the incidence of alcohol related violence but, yes, I do think that toughening up the closing hours is a step in the right direction, since relaxing them has only made the problem worse over the last few years. I can't see how staggered closing will reduce the problem either. The core issue is that a sizeable proportion of the public drink to excess and get agressive when they do so. The longer the opening hours, the more they will drink in public. Make the publican liable, impose fines in excess of € 50,000 per offence, rescind drinks licenses, you'll start to see publicans being alot more strict about enforcing existing law. 5) We concur about the lose of civil liberties through the antics of drunken eejits. It is they who are ultimately affecting your right to have a few quiet pints.
    I didn't think we could come to an amicable agreement but it appears we did. It's been a good conversation
    Binokular
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    9/30/2004 2:18 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Rev Jules
    quote:
    Originally posted by Optimus
    Jesus it's just a discussion board weither it relates to music or not. Calm down lads.
    Compared to the Damien Rice was of a few weeks back, this is quite tame. Remember them Doc ?
    Still mopping up the bloodstains....
    Optimus
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    9/30/2004 2:19 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Binokular
    Amen Brother!
    Are you mocking me?
    Binokular
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    9/30/2004 2:20 PM
    Nope.
    Optimus
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    9/30/2004 2:27 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Binokular
    Nope.
    I'm confused and disorientated....I am unsure of your intentions. I dont know if you're mocking me about asking you if you were mocking me....AUGH! "Where is my mind...Where is my mind....?"
    Binokular
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    9/30/2004 2:36 PM
    OK, no worries, Its easy to get confused what people mean because you can't hear someones tone of voice on a discussion board which is usually what lets you know if people are being sarcastic. I wasn't mocking you in either post, amen literally means "I agree" or "so be it", I was just wholeheartedly agreeing with you because its good to put stuff into perspective. Bar closing times are annoying but as you said there are far more important things in life.
    Optimus
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    9/30/2004 2:42 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Binokular
    OK, no worries, Its easy to get confused what people mean because you can't hear someones tone of voice on a discussion board which is usually what lets you know if people are being sarcastic. I wasn't mocking you in either post, amen literally means "I agree" or "so be it", I was just wholeheartedly agreeing with you because its good to put stuff into perspective. Bar closing times are annoying but as you said there are far more important things in life.
    Cracking. Its just as you said. All emotion is lost over the net and not even those smiley faces can reflect what or how someone is trying to say.
    Rev Jules
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    9/30/2004 2:56 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by El Duderino
    I didn't think we could come to an amicable agreement but it appears we did. It's been a good conversation
    Yes it has. Best Jules
    vandala
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    9/30/2004 3:48 PM
    I love drinking. I've never been in a fight. The only person who ever picked a fight with me was Damien Rice: he was about eight years old at the time. I hope this clears everythig up.
    jmc105
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    10/1/2004 3:29 PM
    how the gardai think a universal closing time will improve the kind of acolhol-related problems that exist in dublin, cork etc is beyond me. do they think that people suddenly start drinking insane amounts after 1.30am? do they think it's a good idea to force everybody in the country who's out drinking onto the streets at the same time at the end of the night? as an attempt to solve a serious problem, it's a joke. what about off-licences selling drink to kids? what about drinks companies marketing alcohol products that look and taste like soft-drinks? what pubs/clubs selling drink to people who have clearly drunk too much already? why are the real questions not being addressed? like why is it that so many people feel the need to get so drunk so often? what does that say about our society? why are kids told to stay away from drink until they are 18, then suddenly let loose on the pubs/clubs when they reach that age as if being 18 implies some innate understanding of how to handle drink? and why have a legal drinking age of 18 when it clearly isn't working? surely it'd be better to introduce teenagers to alcohol at a younger age in a more controlled way? let the parents decide, let teenagers drink at home, in a more controlled environment, where they can learn for themselves how to drink responsibly. and in the meantime, if we continue to make the pub the centre of our socialising world, at least make some effort to give u-18's something to do while their waiting to turn 18 - combine that with a crackdown on offlicences selling to underage kids and we might actually see a change for the better, at least with underage drinking.


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