we don't know any of these things. Mostly because they didn't happen.

anyway, there have been a bunch of great rock stars since Kurt. Plenty of 'idols' for kids. It has to come up sooner or later, but Pete Doherty for example. When Cobain was around (similar to Doherty today), there was much made of his drug use, relationships, destructive behaviour and little made of his music in the mainstream media. Yet, now, people see it unfit to compare the phenomenon of Doherty in comparrison with Cobain, now that he's dead. Apparantely, Doherty is a 'junkie' and Cobain was an 'addict'. There is no 'last great rock star'

But Cobain had talent while Doherty doesn't offer anything suprising, constructive or original. I would heavily debate the argument that Doherty is an idol for kids.

Doherty is talented, I don't see how anyone who follows his song writing closely could say otherwise. What did Cobain offer that was surprising, constructive or original (apart from his songs)? He was just a guy who played music, there's no mysticism there. If Doherty wasn't an idol for little indie kids today, then NME wouldn't put him on the cover every other month, his gigs wouldn't sell out, and his songs wouldn't be downloaded.

Doherty is used as a marketing tool by NME to sell magazines. In the same way that tabloid newspapers use the tarnished images of celebrities to sell papers, the normal person seems to have this voyeuristic urge to see how bad a celebrity has screwed up. The image of the red-eyed Doherty sells magazines because The Libertines enjoyed some success and they brought a bit of freshness from the usual British indie bands that were cropping up for a long time. Even though The Libertines weren't a great band (they had some decent songs and played pumped up live sets), they were marketable because they were the first real rebel band to emerge for a new breed of teenagers in the last few years. Since The Stooges or The Ramones there wasn't a real rock band with a punk twist that the latest generation of teenagers could identify with and mosh along to. The Libertines provided an image, hard hitting guitar-driven music, resurrection of the so-called 'guerrllia' gig and a frontman who exploited the 'don't give a f**k attiude'. Just because Doherty can write a couple of half decent songs (that's also debatable) and perform well on stage, doesn't make him an idol. Kurt Cobain is considered an idol mainly because he helped invent the sound of Grunge through writing good songs about serious subjects with decent music to back it up. Is Kurt Cobain even an idol to people? Do kids look at what Kurt achieved and think 'Hey, I want to be a depressing loner who has trouble connecting with people, take surplus amounts of drugs and when I can't hack life anymore take the bullet train'? (This might come across as me slating Kurt but I actually like alot of Nirvana's stuff and have nothing against Cobain. It's just that the facts of his life are in his songs, writings and interviews) When Cobain died, he suddenly became a martyr of sorts. NME and every music publication cashed in on this, record companies planned re-issues of Nirvana cd's and clothing companies expanded production of black Cobain t-shirts & hoodies. Is Cobain an idol because he was a musical genius? Is Cobain an idol because he died in tragic but interesting circumstances? Is Cobain an idol because he reflected the truth, hurt and emotions of thousands of teenagers in the western world? Is Cobain an idol because we'll never know how good he could've been? ....... And what about Pete Doherty? Has he achieved anything to elevate him to idol status? Has he invented a cool new genre of music? Has he set the world alight with his unavoidable talent? Has he made drugs, drug rehabilition and breaking the law cool in the 21st century? Has he made a sincere connection with music fans that after he is gone people will mourn him and wear his t-shirts as a statement of being an outsider?

Has he invented a cool new genre of music? Not a new genre per se, but a new genre for the majority who worship him Has he set the world alight with his unavoidable talent? i don't know what 'setting the world alight' refers to Has he made drugs, drug rehabilition and breaking the law cool in the 21st century? yes. Has he made a sincere connection with music fans that after he is gone people will mourn him of course, Doherty made music accessible and democratic and completely erased the gap between audience and artist. He did, of course get too close. and wear his t-shirts as a statement of being an outsider? perhaps only in terms of the collective outsiders. ie by not belonging to one group (the mainstream), you belong to another (the indie) Regarding Cobain: "Do kids look at what Kurt achieved and think 'Hey, I want to be a depressing loner who has trouble connecting with people, take surplus amounts of drugs and when I can't hack life anymore take the bullet train'?" absof**kinlutely. It's why teenagers get into Nirvana, because everything about Cobain screams misunderstood. I think I read on popbitch (source of all concrete information) that Alan McGee was overheard at a party saying "pete is my kurt"

Could you explain how he has made drug use, drug rehabiltion and breaking the law cool? Just because NME or The Sun cover his antics doesn't mean that more kids will go out and get hooked to smack just so they can copy their new idol. You mentioned 'the majority who worship him' - worship is a very strong word to use for someone who hasn't changed the world of music for the better. Do Libertines/Babyshambles fans actually worship him? Why would they worship him exactly, what are his outstanding traits? RE: Cobain comments: Saying that teenagers only get into Nirvana because everything about Cobain screams misunderstood is putting all music fans into the same boat. I know that when I first liked Nirvana, it was because of that 'Smells Like Teen Spirit' video and song and then the MTV Unplugged album. While I am not a huge Nirvana fan, I wouldn't be someone who likes their music because the lead singer/songwriter was this tragic figure.

im still not sure what to make of doherty, mainly cos i've been too busy lately to give him a chance. I did like the first Libertines album, thought it was very good, fresh. I think that Doherty's "Libertine" attitude is good, in that i would see music as art, and am all for its marriage with other art. But you have to have talent to live like Rimbaud, Baudelaire, Morrison or Cobaine, and i don't really think Doherty has shown that yet. He may well do though, theres another important thing though, people live through their rockstars. People lap up the excess of Pete Doherty, because they are fascinated. Everyone wants to be a rockstar, to go out get f**ked, do drugs, score Kate Moss... but most people are too afraid to stick a note up their nose, or a needle up their arm. I think that Mick Jagger said it first, but they only do the things everyone else wants to, thats why people love it. im not saying in any way that people should do drugs at all, but they are essentially the "forbidden fruit", its dark fascination, and mystery, the excitement, that draws people to that nature of Doherty's character i think. I'm too tired to think this through, so i hope that didnt come out all jumbled,

Yeah, yeah, people wear Cobain T-Shirts to show that they're "outsiders" or whatever, just like people wore Ian Curtis T-Shirts before that (who was way better than either Cobain or Doherty by the way). I just find it really sad that people seem to concentrate on these individuals deaths rather than their lives. Elevating any individual to a messianic "idol" status actually does them a huge disservice in my opinion. It obscures the real memory of the individual and kinda strips them of their fundamental humanity. Purely in music terms, Nirvana didn't really invent any new genres. They were a pop punk band, taking inspiration (and more than a few covers!) from bands like the Vaselines. They weren't even really grunge for goodness sake. I mean they seemed to be at the time, but what had Nirvanas' sound got to do with bands like Alice in Chains, Soundgarden, Pearl Jam and Live? What they did is open the doors for a host of bands that would soon be labelled "alternative", which is ironic because the "alternative" soon became mainstream. So if Kurt was still around? Assuming Nirvana was still going, the other great "grunge" band of the era The Smashing Pumpkins (who funnily enough weren't really grunge either, having far more to do with 70s/80s rock) might still be around too. Maybe if Corgan had a worthy and successful rival band to keep him motivated in the years between the demise of mid 90s grunge/alternative era and the current revival in guitar based rock bands he might have kept going. Then again maybe not, Corgan felt the possibilities of purely guitar based rock had been exhausted and the Pumpkins probably would have ran out of steam and imploded anyway.

anyone who watched Stalking Pete Doherty last night on channel 4 will know what I mean about his fans worshipping him. I do think he has made crack cool, definately. I think because it has such a bad rep as a drug stateside, but all of a sudden here's this middle class poet doing it - of course that's going to make it more acceptable to people. And, yeah, he has probably made heroin a little more acceptable too. People forget that heroin is done almost recreactionaly in many circles, it's not just sitting in a squat shooting up. Pete Doherty, his posse, Babyshambles, The Libertines, Razorlight, The Others - these are all popular acts and use heroin. Don't tell me that that's not going to make the drug look cool to their fans. Binokular - we're talking specifically about these people in the terms of 'idols' - which is why we're concentrating on that.

aye i saw that documentary on c4 last night, that journo is a mess. Found it quite disturbing to be honest, and he definitely is worshipped, i always thought he was but not quite to this extent. He probably is making drug use cool, or at least more acceptable. Heroin/crack have very bad reps, but here are these essentialy normal people doing it, and doing quite well for themselves, if you didnt know any better...

it was disturbing wasn't it? At the same time, I found it hard to feel sorry for the 'journo' Max because he was such a twat. I've read bunches of stuff from groupies and people on the fringes of the Babyshambles posse who were smoking crack and heroin. These people would've probably never come in contact with those drugs if it weren't for that scene. That element definately has to translate to their hardcore fans. Sure, Johnny Borrell from Razorlight went in Q magazine saying "smoking heroin is a very civilised life" for f**ks sake. Of course this makes it more acceptable to their fans. I'm not saying someone's going to turn around and say 'PETE DOHERTY MADE ME SHOOT UP', but subconsciously, it's breaking the heroin taboo in the minds of the fans. I think a couple of the talking heads on the programme last night made really good points about heroin being part of the romanticism of the scene. And I guess these musicians are kids themselves and looking at what they're doing and all the fame, respect and success they're getting and thinking 'well, the drugs aren't doing me any harm'. I always just generalised it in my head that for Cobain, heroin was probably a pain killer and a method of escape, where with the 'Shambles heads, it's a cool cache and an apparant method of inspiration.

I'm still not so sure that Doherty et 'his posse' have made hard drugs cool. Just because some idiots follow his example doesn't mean that that type of drug is more popular on a national or international scale. Ok alot of his fans might be shooting up at his gigs but that's only a small percentage of people. Drugs, especially hard drugs, are never really acceptable and will always be a taboo subject. Yes Doherty packs out venues, sells albums and makes front pages of the media but so do Big Brother housemates or ex Eastenders actors. People will always be fascinated by the people who break the rules, but just because Doherty is the latest rebel on the scene doesn't mean that more teenagers worldwide will suddenly start abusing drugs. There will be some, in the same vein that there will be some who sit at home 24-7 watching Big Brother. It's a small circle of people who think Doherty is cool. And describing him as a 'middle class poet' - Come On!!!!

I dont't know, Doherty attaches a kind of romanticism to heroin. Calls it opium etc, and don't forget a lot of the great poets smoked opium, from rimbaud and baudelaire up to Burroughs (who was a lifelong junkie, wrote a great book actually, its called... "junkie"!) Also from what I can tell, theyre not actually mainlining. just smoking it, etc, which apparently takes longer to get hooked on, and is definitely, definitely not as taboo, or as off putting as sticking a needle in your arm. I dont know where this is going to be honest, the truth is though that either Doherty will sort himself out or he will be f**ked up, and thats when the message hits home about home harmful heroin is... again.

doherty has made heroin cool to those who admire him and buy his music there is no difference of addiction to smoking of injection heroin. that difference only occurs with cocaine really (snorting V smoking) in fact, it has nothing to do with addiction, just effect

"Just because Doherty can write a couple of half decent songs (that's also debatable) and perform well on stage, doesn't make him an idol. Kurt Cobain is considered an idol mainly because he helped invent the sound of Grunge through writing good songs about serious subjects with decent music to back it up. Is Kurt Cobain even an idol to people?" Define the grunge "sound". When I think of Nirvana next to Alice in Chains I can't really find a common thread beyond the fact that they both dressed like vagrants. Seems grunge was more a movement of scruffs than than any particular genre of music. Cobain is not the genius he's made out to be, he wrote some nice punk oriented rock tunes at the right time, and the kids loved him. Same as Pete Doherty now, the kids love him and when he inevitabley snuffs it he will be hailed as a genius and a martyr and appear on the cover of every music magazine every second week (incentive enough to pray he has a long and happy existence). It's just a generational difference in my opinion. If we were all 15 we'd f**king love Pete f**king Doherty (and one of us would probably have tried crack by now). Also, Johnny Borrell is a c**t.