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Last Post 8/26/2005 9:58 AM by  Pilchard
John Meagher in The Irish Indo
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Pilchard
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8/26/2005 9:58 AM
    Fantastic piece by John Meagher in the Indo on Irish rock. It has been said before by other critics (its a regular rant for jim carroll in the irish times) but its good to read nonethless. Heres the piece... So much music, so little talent Thursday August 25th 2005 We're constantly told this is a golden age in Irish music - but forget the hype ...there's practically nothing to get excited about, says rock critic John Meagher I met an English musician some time ago who gave serious thought to moving to Dublin. He was under the impression that it was a great city in which to be a singer-songwriter. We Irish were a kind bunch who liked nothing better than sitting in a smokeless pub, sipping our Guinness while listening to some bloke pick at an acoustic guitar and tunelessly singing about losing his girlfriend. London audiences, he suggested, aren't quite as forgiving. Too right, mate. The problem with the Irish is that we're not a nation of complainers. Many of us will listen to just about any old guff and buy the albums while we're at it. It might explain how the hideous racket served up by Declan O'Rourke has charted so highly and why Paddy Casey's Junior Cert lyrics have found such a large audience. It's Irish so it must be good, right? Wrong. The common perception - pushed by the record industry and a subservient media - is that we're experiencing a golden era in Irish music. And if you're particularly naive you'll have bought the line that the Hard Working Class Heroes festival - happening in Dublin this weekend - will be a glorious showcase for musical talent in this country. The intentions of the organisers can't be faulted, but it's likely to be all chaff and no wheat. The aforementioned Casey is one of the 'big names' playing at the event, for heaven's sake. U2 may be making millions and playing to millions on their marathon world tour, but things have rarely been so glum on the domestic music front. And it's not just the awful raggle-taggle of singer-songwriters who are delivering such insipid and uninteresting music. Rock bands - the lifeblood of any music scene - are doling out fare that veers from bland to wretched. I'm tired of going to see bands with nothing to say and who seem to be embarrassed about being on stage. Nearly all of them feel they have to dole out monologues to us a la Glen Hansard of The Frames, a man who most local critics agree is a pain in the posterior. And would somebody tell Ollie Cole of Turn to return to the day job? I often wonder what I've done to deserve this life when I find myself at Dublin's Sugar Club on Friday nights. It's a lovely venue, but with any band able to hire the place to put on their show, you can be privy to some dreadful rubbish. A few weeks back I ventured there with a friend to catch a three-piece called Stoat. It was terrible sub-Electric Six stuff with nonsense lyrics and erratic musicianship. When I pointed this out on a radio station the next day, one of the guys in the band took offence. He seemed to be under the mistaken impression that local journalists should give local acts an easy ride. Not this one, Cormac. As music critic with this paper, I'm exposed to a lot of local music. Very little makes it to my iPod. The best Irish album of the year so far? Hal's eponymous debut. It's a sweet, melodious work. In truth, though, it's very hard to be passionate about a band who write songs with titles like What A Lovely Dance and I Sat Down. I also enjoyed albums by Joe Chester, Emmett Tinley, Cane 141, Jimmy Behan and the soon-to-be released albums by former A House frontman Dave Couse and Pugwash. They're all good albums, but are any of them good enough to be nominated for the Mercury Music Prize? Not one of them. None has that spark of brilliance that puts it alongside nominees such as Antony and the Johnsons or The Magic Numbers. Every week, I receive at least 10 demos from Irish acts. I'd be lying if I said I've listened to all of them, but I can count on the fingers of one hand the demos that made me sit up and take notice. I'm the first to slag off record company A&R personnel but I sure as hell don't envy their job. And I'd really love it if Hugh from Monaghan would stop ringing me every Friday about his Kraftwerk-meets-Iron Maiden outfit. Go and bug some other journalist, please. Then there are the new acts that have a bit of live experience under their belts but whose work to date remains patchy at best. Jove, Delorentos, Tadhg Cooke and Larry Beau are promising, but still seem to be struggling to find their feet. Porn Trauma are too much in thrall to Kings of Leon while Ham Sandwich should really change their name. And what about female musicians. Is anybody likely to follow in the footsteps of the overrated Gemma Hayes? The UK-based Dubliner Cathy Davey is very talented - far more so than Hayes - but she failed to find an audience for her fine debut Something Ilk. It's hard to see the likes of Jenny Lindfors or Grainne Brookfield making much impression. As for all-girl rock band Fair Verona, they look better than they sound. Yes, it's been an annus horribilis for Irish music and there are precious few releases before year-end to look forward to. I like The Chalets' live show and they have an album out next month which I have yet to hear. I worry that they are a triumph of style over substance, though. And Bell X1, who have promised so much in recent years, release their third album in October. They remain the band most likely to do a Snow Patrol but they have made some catastrophic decisions in the past about what songs to release as singles.. They need to learn from those mistakes, otherwise Island Records may wonder if it's worth keeping them on the roster. Perhaps we get the music we deserve. After all, more than half a million of us tuned into the dreadful Celebrity You're A Star - to hear a bunch of jumped-up nonentities sing badly. Maybe Hard Working Class Heroes will unearth Ireland's answer to The Arcade Fire - the Canadian band who have released 2005's finest album - and I will have to eat my words. I doubt it, somehow. Hard Working Class Heroes runs from tomorrow until Sunday, with 100 acts performing in six Dublin venues. www.hwch.net Are we really lost in music? Angela Dorgan, organiser Hard Working Class Heroes festival "I don't think it's fair to say that Irish bands don't box well even in their own weight category. It is too subjective to say there are no good bands from Ireland. Iain Archer puts goosebumps on my arm, the Frank and Walters make me dance for three hours in a row, Delorentos make me think I'm 17 again and 8 Ball could be the backing track for a BBQ anywhere in the world. The indie industry has never been healthier, the opportunities here are in the hands of the artist more than any other industry. Per capita, we have more successes. That's something to be celebrated and not dismissed." Ian O'Doherty Irish Independent columnist "A golden era for Irish music? What a joke. The success of The Frames and Paddy Casey is a triumph of persistence and mediocrity over pure talent and inspiration. With the exception of a few honourable exceptions, the self-congratulatory nature of the scene is grotesque. Just look at the party line spouted every fortnight by Hot Press with its insistence that we're a great little country with great musicians. We're going through a very lean time and anybody who uses their two ears properly will acknowledge that." Stevo Berube Music industry publicist "There is a lot of talent out there but many acts don't get a chance to develop because the bar is not set high enough in Ireland. There's enormous competition in the UK and that pushes the standard up. Here, everything seems to rise to the top - good and bad. As it's a small country there is a limited live circuit so bands don't get to play live often enough to hone their sound or to make enough money to be full-time musicians. It's interesting that some of the best Irish acts of recent times have worked on their craft in the UK first. And the lot of local outfits are not helped by the fact that the press and media here tend to be conservative and unwilling to take chances with emerging local acts."
    Gar
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    8/26/2005 10:12 AM
    While I don't agree with everything he says, it's an entertaining piece and he makes some good arguments.
    palace
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    8/26/2005 10:32 AM
    lazy, lazy, lazy... ...for a music journalist, he's not looking very deep, is he?
    Pilchard
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    8/26/2005 10:34 AM
    quote:
    Originally posted by palace
    lazy, lazy, lazy... ...for a music journalist, he's not looking very deep, is he?
    er.....what do u mean?
    The_Thin_Man
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    8/26/2005 11:22 AM
    quote:
    Originally posted by palace
    lazy, lazy, lazy... ...for a music journalist, he's not looking very deep, is he?
    Having spent the past 5 years going to increasingly less gigs in Dublin, for the precise reasons he's outlined, Meagher's struck the nail on the head for me. If anyone's lazy here it's the acts not serious enough about their careers to do the necessary and relocate to London. I'd prefer a flow of young, enthusiastic and emigrating bands to a thrombosis of turgidity epitomised by P Casey and his ilk.
    mick
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    8/26/2005 12:06 PM
    i think its a good article... i'd say palace reckons its lazy because he could just look a bit harder to find some good bands dry county, the redneck manifesto are obviously missing... waiting room, rest etc.
    Evil Bob
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    8/26/2005 12:07 PM
    He's certainly nailed it alright but he's neglected to mention the fact that its not just the musicians themselves that are lazy and uninspired, its the people of Ireland themselves who are content to listen to endless streams of mediocrity. I mean The Frames and Paddy Casey still sell records and get people going to their gigs where the same dull bastards will simply stand completely motionless in some kind of trance nodding their heads and supping occasionally on their pints. People in this country are content to listen to "safe" music. We don't like to think about our music. We don't want interesting stuff that will challenge us and make us use the grey matter. We made David Gray big for gods sake. Stereophonics headlined Slane and almost filled the place. Coldplay are ridiculously big (which is true for the rest of the world admittedly) and Aslan keep packing them in. The average irish music fan needs to converted first before all this boring drivel can be disposed with. Having said that, there are a few bands out there that I've seen that do have potential to do some justice to this place but they really do not to get out of here to do it. It also strikes me as somewhat daunting when the organiser of Hardworkingclassheroes raves about a band by saying that they "could be the backing track for a BBQ anywhere in the world". Isn't that just another way of saying "it's music you can ignore". Is that what we need right now?
    Carlsberg
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    8/26/2005 12:12 PM
    Ultimately, I agree with 99% of what John has said. Coming straight to the point, we are still talking about the same acts for the past 5 years as acts which have "broken through". The Frames,Paddy Casey,Bellx1,The Corrs,Damian Rice(I no longer hear people talking about Turn, correct me if i am wrong) & when we get stuck we (ireland) bring back the Cranberries as another artist of mass success outside of Ireland, which, they are, but in my opinion, are one of the most embarrassing and god awful acts we let out of the cage here. Everyone of those acts are successful and have to be respected for what "they do". But not one of those acts (bellx1's october release may prove me wrong!!) can stand up to the dark beauty Interpol.. have the magic of Mercury Rev, the passion of The Manics, the creativity of Death Cab for Cutie or the massive genuine big band worldwide appeal of Coldplay. Snow Patrol have joined this party late and am going to give them the benefit of any doubt as we await their new album, I also think that Snow Patrol have the potential to be a really good band but as mentioned a minute ago, i await the release. I don't buy the whole population per band thing as an excuse as to why a country like ours cannot produce an act which combimes both substance, sytle and has "that" thing. As a manager of an act in Dublin I see bands every week. I see alot of tight Hard Working Units some of whom have good songs but they are just not different, just not gripping me, not making me want to go and see them again. It's like at the moment you have to have a certain degree of shi*tness in order to be commercially successful However, I do think that in the last year, there has been a collective of bands which have gigged the dublin scene and around Ireland and taken the initiative to move the process forward themselves and go the Independent road. The Rags have what I consider two Fantastic EP's, 66e's album is brilliant. I loved Polars single but we're losing them to the UK and good on them. I am excited about Delorentos and Lost. Alphastates, The Urges & Wicker have all got something going on which i have yet get but i see why they are liked and I see why they have the potential to be good acts. People talk alot about The Chalets, I dont and I dont get them. Director are an act which i believe could break this barrier between genuine quality and mass commcercial success. They remind me of so many bands that they've almost created a sound for themselves. We are bombarded by singer-songwriters 24/7. That's their right however & I for one am looking forward to seeing Tadhg Cooke when I can. I like Jenny Lindfors & Karl Vincent, I think Herm has got a good thing going on. It's any musicians right to get up onto a stage and do something "they" believe in and that should never be knocked. Unfortunately, the quality of the majority of those getting up on stage, while often well crafted, well meaning and for want of a better word, good, remains below the par for what is needed to make it at this level and more importantly, what is needed to take people with you on your journey. I dont think HWCH will give us the next Arcade Fire either but we have an Arcade Fire, I just want to be blown away by an act over the weekend and feel when I leave that I either want to manage them or cant wait to see them again. Enjoy HWCH guys & have good weekend Carlsberg
    Unicron
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    8/26/2005 12:16 PM
    Becasue London/NY/LA/Nasville is the be all and end all of the music world? I'll admit that the Dublin/Irish scene is a bit stale but it doesn't mean that you need to be in one of the places mentioned above. Look at all the stuff that's emerged from Manchester in the last 20 years, in Canada there's amazing music coming out of Toronto and Montreal right now, I think Seattle might have produced a few decent bands in it's time. Moving to London wouldn't make Paddy Casey good, not writing s**te music would. And, by the way, there is some horrendous crap coming out of these musical epicentres that most of us will never hear about. We might have to put up with Havana Calling but New Yorkers have got Morning Wood to contend with. Also his comments on the Mercury Music Prize are complete toss, winning awards doesn't mean music is good (M People are mercury winners for chrissakes) and they certainly shouldn't be used to (in)validate people's music.
    Pilchard
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    8/26/2005 12:30 PM
    All good points made and all part of the debate I'm going to go to Hard Working Class Heroes and hope I hear something amazing, something knock-out brilliant. But thats just the start - the band need so much more to succeed than just songs. Everything from management and record label to luck and coincidence. The infrastructure here means that if a band is serious about being more than just "big In Ireland" (the new "big in Japan"), they have to go abroad. Say what we will about the fr*m*s but they havent been in ireland much this year at all. theyve been touring everywhere. it may not work but they are out there giving it a lash There is another problem with dublin bands. i spent about an hour yesterday on the HWCH site listening to MP3s and it struck me that there seems to be an awful lot of bands who sound the damn same. All that same bluesy guitar R&B old-school howl. bands like Porn Trauma want to be the Kings of Leon. Bands like The Things want to be The Kinks. Fine but others do it so much better. We need something new, exciting, raw, emotional, angry, startling to come along. Thats the kind of thing John Meagher is writing about. But unfortunately, i dont see that changing. In 5 years time, he will still be writing the same piece because nothing will have changed. I hope I will be proved wrong
    roadhousemag
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    8/26/2005 12:47 PM
    Less focus on image and more on learning how to sing properly would be a good step for alot of the singers/fronts in local groups. Honestly while there are a great deal of exciting and talented outfits at the moment (and I believe there are), very few have a lead singer with a note in their head. Having seen the majority of bands on the "scene" at the moment, that is the common denominator for me. It'd be refreshing if a group cultivated their own sound and approach as opposed to ripping off their teen idols too. The Rags, Delorentos, Ch-1 and Dry County would be the stand out groups at the minute for me personally. However unfortunately only two of the above play this weekend. Hopefully there will be a big turn out for this though. The last thing needed is apathy.
    Punchbowl
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    8/26/2005 12:47 PM
    I think John Meahger is spot on. We are being dominated by safe, coffee table, schoolteacher-chic singer songwriters whose lyrics, rhyming for the sake of it, bounce non-threateningly off People Carrier passenger seats whilst the drivers tend to their kids. In every town and every city there exists a number of scenes. There's the Alternative Scene, the Pop scene and the DJ scene. Currently, in Dublin the only scene that's thriving (On Wexford St anyway) is the DJ scene, with Anseo pushing all the buttons. The pop scene is dead at the moment while the alternative scene is suffering from a huge identity crisis. But wait, didn't I say the pop scene was dead? Well, in truth it's not. Paddy Casey, Declan O'Roruke et all are amongst these, scene confused artists, wandering up and down the Village Qtr looking for a place to hang out and invariably ending up in pop towers (or Whelans). Is it that hard to know who's fault it is? John Meagher levels some blame at the audience. Valid. And the bands? Strike two. Apart from the dreadful Stoat, he mentions a number of other bands who, in truth, rely on mates to bring up the fanbase. Ham Sandwich (awful name) .. Is it Glen (I was OK on Miriam, but you've got me, I DO have a different story everytime I explain how I wrote lay me down)?? Certainly, Angela's heart is in the right place and she does a great job every year with HWCH. And I applaud her for being able to get Pony Club, Jape and the mighty Sack to appear with such low quality acts. And I'm sure a number of these guys will go on to better things ( Ruby Taillights and the Gugginheim Grotto for example ) but there is a serious overall lack of genuine talent here. Dave Couse's album will obviously be great. Cane 141's is. Jape is the most exciting thing coming out of Ireland right now..Emmet Tinley too. But, you know these guys have been around a while and a hardly new. Is the scene dying?
    roadhousemag
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    8/26/2005 12:49 PM
    Less focus on image and more on learning how to sing properly would be a good step for alot of the singers/fronts in local groups. Honestly while there are a great deal of exciting and talented outfits at the moment (and I believe there are), very few have a lead singer with a note in their head. Having seen the majority of bands on the "scene" at the moment, that is the common denominator for me. It'd be refreshing if a group cultivated their own sound and approach as opposed to ripping off their teen idols too. The Rags, Delorentos, Ch-1 and Dry County would be the stand out groups at the minute for me personally. However unfortunately only two of the above play this weekend. Hopefully there will be a big turn out for this though. The last thing needed is apathy.
    miju
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    8/26/2005 1:25 PM
    most of what I have to say has been said already but suffice to say I think thatthe article is spot on and I have to admit I found Angela's BBQ remark quite strange indeed.
    mick
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    8/26/2005 1:40 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Unicron
    Becasue London/NY/LA/Nasville is the be all and end all of the music world? I'll admit that the Dublin/Irish scene is a bit stale but it doesn't mean that you need to be in one of the places mentioned above.
    the difference, in my opinion, between dublin and all these places (canada included) is the number of independent record labels... in the uk & usa there are thousands of indie labels that will release music on a small level but develop a band's sound while getting them a fanbase... people know and respect the labels and therefore buy stuff from them on merit (like what happens with rough trade/matador/sub pop except obviously they're on a much bigger scale now) then often the band will get bought by a bigger label (nirvana/bloc party) and the band will go onto bigger things, the small label will get more money to develop more acts and the cycle goes on. here in dublin/ireland all the indie labels are run by the bands themselves (with the exception of www.outonalimbrecords.com - fantastic label) which means self financing, which in turn means bands have to either develop a fanbase over night or work a day job to fund their band. working a day job to fund your band is terrible because straight away you lose out on precious writing/recording/rehearsing/living time and as we all know, its impossible to develop a fanbase overnight unless your marketed by a nice big corporate machine. i think this lack of indie labels directly contributes to our lack of good/successful bands, but to be honest i cant propose any ideas to change this... because we're such a small country setting up an indie label just isnt economically viable unless you can have the success of david gray or damien rice with one of your releases and lets face it... if you did have that kind of success people here in ireland would dismiss your label/band straight away as overly commercial or whatever - we all remember the days when the frames were the darlings of the indie scene here, now a bit of success and they're a swear word on cluas???
    Unicron
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    8/26/2005 1:48 PM
    And ironically way back then Stokes and the HP crew wouldn't piss the Frames' name in the snow, now that they aren't cool (were they ever?) they're all over it. The fact that there isn't a viable alternative to Hot Press here has to be damaging the scene.
    mick
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    8/26/2005 1:57 PM
    the problem with hotpress might be the lack of subject matter to cover too? i dont buy nme or hotpress but i'm sure they'd be the exact same magazine if they were located in the same place??
    Daragh
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    8/26/2005 2:15 PM
    quote:
    He seemed to be under the mistaken impression that local journalists should give local acts an easy ride. Not this one, Cormac
    hehe, brilliant line. Liked the piece in that its a good read, and i do think that the music scene is a bit weak at the moment. But im sick to f**king death of people moaning about f**king paddy casey and the frames, get over it! ive been to a fair few gigs, and never once come across those f**kers, like some one mentioned earlier, there are good bands out there, but you do have to be prepared to go to some s**te venue, and (inevitably) listen to some other mediocre bands to find them. Definitely the lack of a music press bringing attention to these acts is part of the problem, if people dont read about bands etc then a simple "X are playing here on friday, it will rock" isnt really going to make a great ad. I think we're dropping the ball on Cluas a bit too, with the amount of attention paid to unsigned acts, that should change a bit after this weekend with HWCH reviews though.
    Pilchard
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    8/26/2005 2:19 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Unicron
    And ironically way back then Stokes and the HP crew wouldn't piss the Frames' name in the snow, now that they aren't cool (were they ever?) they're all over it. The fact that there isn't a viable alternative to Hot Press here has to be damaging the scene.
    well, why isnt there? didnt we have this conversation before? i'm sure we did i dont think the lack of a decent music mag has anything to do with the lack of ambition displayed by dublin/irish bands and the amount of s**te music fans seem to be able to tolerate. it will be interesting to see how things may change after a year of 18 months of Phantom, though. i think the lack of a good radio station has more to do with how awful the standard is than a music magazine.
    Rev Jules
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    8/26/2005 4:02 PM
    A few thoughts. I empathise with John Meagher, sitting there day after day listening to CDs containing music that he wouldn't normally listen to and having to bang out an article on same. Grim. Articles like this usually appear when a critic leaves a paper. There was one a while ago in The Dubliner along the lines of 'I hate all the rotten restaurants I ate in' and another in The Guardian along the lines of 'I hate Big Budget Schlock and Harvey Weinstein'. What they signal most to me is that the critic's taste has become too jaded and out of kilter to judge things properly anymore. Personally, and its no secret, I cant abide Rice, Casey etc. Yeuch, yeuch, yeuch, but I don't agree with the central point that there aren't any excellent musicians in this country, nor the article's title 'So much music, so little talent' (when the article's real focus is confined to the narrow and small pop music scene in this country and what takes place in a handful of venues) There are plenty of wonderful Irish musicians such as Louis Stewart, Peter Browne (the younger, not to be confused with the RTE producer of the same name), Barry Douglas, Niall Toner, Phillip Donnelly (who knows a thing or two about writing hit songs), Clive Barnes and Davey Spillane. I remember sitting transfixed in the rain in Meeting House Square a couple of years ago as Martin Hayes and Dennis Cahill wove their magic in the air around me. But these are people who spend their every waking moment playing music - whose focus is on making music - and not on appearing on the front of Hot Press (The Chalets anyone ?). As for the superiority of the British scene...the history of British Rock, from The Beatles to The Sex Pistols to Oasis has been written by musicians of Irish parentage. A point made by none other than 2005 Mercury Prize Nominee MIA in a recent interview. As I say, I empathise, but this article needed to clarify its theme.
    Gar
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    8/26/2005 4:36 PM
    If I like Damien Rice's 'O' does it mean I have poor judgement and bad taste in music? I shouldn't think so. If I like his album, it doesn't mean that I get excited by hearing that he is drinking in a certain pub or that I stand motionless at his gigs nodding away and supping on my pint. Just because I like someone's music doesn't pigeonhole me with a certain scene or liking a particular brand of music. Whatever people's opinions on The Frames, Paddy Casey, Damien Rice, Declan O'Rourke etc, someone can still like their music, buy their cd's and attend their gigs without ever overhyping them or worshipping them. I gave Declan O'Rourke a very generous review of his debut album, not because I had a few pints with the chap or that I want to be part of a certain clic or that it's the right thing to do in Ireland now.......I did it because I liked the album and still like it. Does that make me shallow? Or not adventrous with my music taste? I don't think so, considering my music collection is so varied and I attend all types of gigs. But alot of posts on this thread have basically labelled anyone who likes The Frames, Paddy Casey etc as lesser music fans. I'm not saying I'm a huge fan of these acts but just because I like some of their music, I'd like to think that I wasn't being looked down at. John Meagher wrote a decent piece and it was an entertaining read. But if he is questioning the Irish scene, I would question his journalistic skills. He has a weekly slot in a National Newspaper, yet he fails to highlight/promote/big up any local or underground bands. Why is this? Basically because he doesn't attend the gigs. That's a huge problem with the media in this country....they are so disconnected from the upcoming bands that they never realise there is some talent out there. Hotpress didn't recognise the Delorentos until they won the National Student Award, The Ticket never mentioned Humanzi until they got signed to a big label, The Indo never heard of Jove until the Loud & Clear event. If journalists actually went to gigs and left their judgemental red pen at home, they would discover alot of decent acts. Of course, there are many dreadful acts out there but there is in every music scene in the western world - not just Dublin. And yes, there is a lack of competition media-wise. We only really have Hotpress, The Ticket, The Indo Mag, Cluas, Roadhouse Mag, Cpu, Irish Music Central, Musician.ie, The Event Guide and some of the Sunday supplements. So there is a need for a strong music publication. But is there a market for it? Will enough people be interested in buying it weekly/forthnightly/monthly? Will people tune into Phantom (when it finally airs) in their masses or will they be content with Spin106? What I would suggest to anyone who is disheartened about the Irish scene is do something about it.......Write a review (constructive criticism does help some bands improve), buy an underground band's Ep, spread the word to mates, go to the gigs, request songs on the radio, write letters to editors of publications. And give HWCH a chance as there are some really good acts on offer this w/e. *rant over.......exhale*
    Daragh
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    8/26/2005 5:13 PM
    wow, very well said Gar, fair play.
    Pilchard
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    8/26/2005 5:21 PM
    Hats off to Rev Jules and Gar, good passionate points and further confirmation why cluas is so good. The thing is there is no right answer to all of this, its all opinions. All valid, provided they are made coherently and entertainingly. John Meagher's article was about rock music and, as much as I subscribe to the God-like brilliance of Martin Hayes and Dennis Cahill and other maestros, his argument only applies to those wearing the rock/pop hats Gar's points about national newspapers not recognising local bands - I really, really dont think its their job and here is the reason why what I said before about the lack of other mags/rags than HP falls flat on its arse (took less than three hours for that to hapepn, a new record). Yes, we need a mag to hear about Humanzi, Delorentos, Jove, Polar, Director, Marshal Stars. But is there enough of "us" to support such a magazine? I sadly dont think so. The fact that its left to a national newspaper to question what is going on in Irish underground indie rock is a huge shame. However, I sincerely doubt if a commissioning editor at any rock mag like Hot Press would give the space to such a maverick, unpopular opinion. It wouldnt be welcomed by advertisers, bands, other writers. Thats the great thing about having writers like Meagher etc writing columns in national newspapers and having the freedom to shoot from the hip- you get different opinions. its why you will read someone like Jim Carroll or even Neil Dunphy - the kind of opinions you will get there are not what you would get in a music-only magazine which has to worry about pissing off those who pay the bills. right, i'm off, i'm hungry and i have some gigging to do later on.
    silentsigh
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    8/26/2005 9:03 PM
    This has been the best topic on cluas for a while. Well written opinions and valid points from both sides. Alot of the signed acts in Ireland are the ones who leave me uninterested. As gar correctly points out, irish journalists need to start Attending and writting about our unsigned bands.They might just end up witnessing bands like The Rags, Channel 1, Humanzi and Dry County. On the other hand, i can understand certain amounts of criticism leveled at certain irish bands as they are so over hyped it beggars belief. It may also be worth remembering that Ireland is a tiny country in world proportions and so to expect a host of Irish bands to be at the top end of world music may be asking a little too much.
    Binokular
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    8/26/2005 10:25 PM
    I think the comment about the lack of non band owned Indie labels is a pretty good one, CH-1 are great but someone needs to get them in a studio eventually with a producer capable of helping them focus and nail down a decent EP. Until then they will remain untapped potential. Not that theres any harm taking their time. My Bloody Valentine didn't bother with the whole rushing off to london to get a record deal thing, the spent ages just mucking about in Germany with like minded individuals. Waterford band "The Heard" are easily as good as band like The Coral. That sounds like damning them with faint praise I know, but these guys haven't had the opportunity to explore their potential yet. As has been said, its a lot to expect in a small country like Ireland to have a mind blowing band popping up every five minutes. Its just if you say, "well X band are good, but not great" you're not seen as "supporting the Irish Music Scene", but balanced criticism that doesn't give bands brownie points simply for being Irish is essential. Theres little middle ground in the Irish music press between the hardened cynics and the unreserved fawning apologists.
    Unicron
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    8/26/2005 10:35 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Gar
    What I would suggest to anyone who is disheartened about the Irish scene is do something about it.......Write a review (constructive criticism does help some bands improve), buy an underground band's Ep, spread the word to mates, go to the gigs, request songs on the radio, write letters to editors of publications. And give HWCH a chance as there are some really good acts on offer this w/e. *rant over.......exhale*
    Well said Gar. I'd also suggest people pick up a guitar or sit down at a piano or grab a pen and paper or whatever and try to make the type of music they want to hear. It may be s**te, it may not but you never know until you do.
    Una
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    8/27/2005 11:35 AM
    these arguments are so retarded. HELLOOOOO, we all know that most of these 'rock' bands are s**t, but you don't actually have to listen to them you know! So many people complain about the 'state of the scene', but continue to prop it up by going to those gigs and buying the records like some mass act of self harm. The fact that people generalise bands or artists by geography is ridiculous. It has little to do with the quality of music, bar a few passing infringing trends. It's to do with genre, not location. Most rock music is boring all over the planet, not just in Ireland. There is PLENTY of good music out there, Irish, 'non-national' whatever. Why the f**k people keep dragging this argument up I'll never know. But what I understand less is complaints about a solvable situation. How can a band or a song piss you off when you don't listen to them? And, we all know that music journalists are all just frustrated musicians themselves just with an added outlet of complaint.
    milkman
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    8/27/2005 3:22 PM
    its a weird article, that. you could argue that with bands like humanzi, director, marshall stars, red organ serpent sound, and republic of loose signed this year from ireland that it is an exciting time for irish music. maybe one of them will release something fantastic? maybe not, but jesus, it'd be nice. there are loads for good bands, and with humanzi, channel 1 and mainline looked after and heavily connected with MCD in ireland they'll get the pick of the gigs, and will probably have the best chance to develop. after that, the pick of the best irish bands sit in two categories, 'cool' bands like dry county, delorentos, and betamax format, and more commercial hopes like jove and director. People like John Meagher need to be talking about them. they can call them crap if they want, but by getting people talking about them allows them to be heard and lets people make up their mind. While i may not agree with everything in the piece, (and i feel he's playing a charater somewhat) its great to have the independent and unsigned scene in the public eye.
    palace
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    8/29/2005 9:12 AM
    too many posts to read so i'll back up my point briefly... lazy because as mick says, he has picked the usual suspects - also, the same article has been written by any number of out of touch journalists in the last year or two... ok, so yes, paddy casey is a second rate david gray, mundy lacks any ambition but we've heard it so many times... i disagree with the frames - no matter what you think of him, glen hansard is a showman and for the birds is a superior album... but he's choosing the new mainsteam irish - he's neglecting anything slightly leftfield... ...also lads, you're being far too hard on irish bands - most of them act independently with not much money - if you moved some of them to the uk with a budget and a marketing manager, you'd soon see certain quarters raving... a lot of it is luck well said gar for the post nearer the top of this page
    Archie
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    8/29/2005 6:17 PM
    The article was well-written and entertaining, granted, but I thought it was lacking in any depth of content. John Meagher only skimmed the surface, mentioning only the groups and artists we already know about, and not exploring anything in any depth. I think he just sounds tired, to be honest. Despite what Una said, a music journalist should be the one to root out the new and original and bring them into the public eye, not wait around for artists to come to him. At least that's what I've always thought was the point of being a music journalist, but maybe I'm wrong. So he finds some of the more popular artists not to his taste; as long as some people do, that's all that matters. As long as there are groups playing and entertaining and providing us with music at least some of us enjoy, the music scene will never be dead. And there are hundreds of less well known bands playing around Ireland, if you try to find them among the throngs of guitar-wielding teenage cover bands, especially in the city. Yes, irish music is definitely suffering from the lack of media competition. But the main problem as I see it in Irish music is it's being based in Dublin. Yes, I know I've brought it up before, but speaking from small-town Mayo, I can see no opportunities for groups/artists outside the city, so it's either move there or not bother. I know of at least one very talented original band from my town that have been playing around Mayo and surrounding area for quite a few years, in which time they also recorded a demo, but are still only known to their friends, and friends friends. The answer: they're moving to Dublin. Plus most of the "usual suspects", the bands mentioned I'm not even all that familiar with, as they never play over here, and their CDs are not available in any record store I know.
    Binokular
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    8/29/2005 7:02 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Archie
    a music journalist should be the one to root out the new and original and bring them into the public eye, not wait around for artists to come to him. At least that's what I've always thought was the point of being a music journalist
    Fine point there Archie, in fact I'd say the point of any type of journalist is to dig out anything unknown that is worthy of public attention and then bring it to the publics attention in a way that will grab their interest. Music journalism is no different, in fact some of the best pieces of journalism in my opinion often involve far more in terms of tedious painstaking research rather than actual writing. (Jamie Kitmans award winning expose on leaded petrol; "The secret history of Lead" springs to mind as a good example). Thankfully with music, the "research" really isn't as hard as in other subjects (unless you plan on writing a piece on "the definitive history of ukranian folk music" or something), just time consuming. I'd also agree with your comments about being outside Dublin. When people refer to the "Irish" music scene, they really just mean Dublin, with maybe a nod to Cork every so often. I hear people go on and on about certain bands on these boards, but I have no idea if a lot of them are any good because they rarely seem to leave Dublin. People tend to forget theres an entire country out there. I'm moving from Cork to Co. Tipperary at the moment and really, I'm probably going to be looking at travelling to Cork or Dublin if I want to see much in terms of gigs that grab my interest. I don't see it as being down to a lack of venues, generally even small Irish towns have some kind of venue (arts centre, hall, theatre, etc.) which while not ideal, do the job well enough. So what stops most of these bands from getting outside the pale? Is it perhaps the cost of filling a Ford Transit with some 95 octane and loading up some gear? Fear of a poor reaction from the locals? Bad experiences in the past? Getting outside Dublin more would not only help stop the Dublin scene be so insular but help local bands in small towns by having a big name (relatively speaking) to attract the crowds. I'm no fan of the Frames, but I will give them this much credit: they do actually tour the country properly from time to time.
    aidanc
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    8/29/2005 8:17 PM
    Wheather you agree with this article or not, it's definately stirred a lot of interesting debate. I think there is a frustration with the lack of any big international breakthroughs in recent years, people are still expecting the next U2 to come along. In every decade since the 60s except for this one Ireland has had acts that made a big impact internationally. The 60s had Them, Van Morrison and Taste. The 70s had Thin Lizzy, Rory Gallagher, Stiff Little Fingers, The Undertones, The Boomtown Rats. The 80s had U2, Sinead O'Connor, The Pogues, My Bloody Valentine. The 90s had The Cranberries, Therapy?, Ash. And the 2000s Damien Rice is about the only one who has made more than a ripple.
    stroller
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    8/30/2005 3:29 AM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Pilchard
    A few weeks back I ventured there with a friend to catch a three-piece called Stoat. It was terrible sub-Electric Six stuff with nonsense lyrics and erratic musicianship. When I pointed this out on a radio station the next day, one of the guys in the band took offence. He seemed to be under the mistaken impression that local journalists should give local acts an easy ride. Not this one, Cormac........ .........I also enjoyed albums by Joe Chester, Emmett Tinley, Cane 141, Jimmy Behan and the soon-to-be released albums by former A House frontman Dave Couse and Pugwash. They're all good albums, but are any of them good enough to be nominated for the Mercury Music Prize? Not one of them. None has that spark of brilliance that puts it alongside nominees such as Antony and the Johnsons or The Magic Numbers.
    The man's got a point here. Most music fans in this country seem to have two sets of standards; one for Irish acts and one for international ones. I believe that the vast majority of Irish bands that recieve praise on these boards would be pissed on from a height if they hailed from another country. If there's a bit of hype surrounding an international act we've no problem tearing them to shreds if they deliver anything less than a musical masterpiece. However we're far less critical when we're dealing with our own. We have a tendency to make unwarranted allowances for Irish acts and to be far more forgiving in our evaluations of their output. Comparing Irish acts to their foreign counterparts is like comparing the players from the Eircom national League to the English Premiership. Sure there's a few individuals who stand out from their contemporaries domestically but most of them aren't good enough to compete abroad at a higher level.
    PlaytOh
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    9/4/2005 10:04 AM
    Hot Press has competition - its called Connected Magazine - they've got their finger on the trigger. Great rag and its online too. Mister Meagher has got a point - problem you have is most venues wont take cutting edge bands (....you'll have to guarantee 50 people...), no radio show will play it (....its not really a radio song...), so to get your name about (and the acts that John mentioned all have) bands are forced to play the game. I'm pretty sure that none of them want to - there is a reality which he is choosing to ignore and that is most bands are pushed down the road of doling out a 'lowest common denominator' tune to get a bit of attention. They're not shying away from writing good songs, they are just writing the songs that will be reviewed, played, listened to at BBQ's so that they can release the songs that they want later. Its easy to give the musicians a kicking - what about the DJ's, Journo's and Venue owners? They belong in the dock answering the charge of dumbing down music too.
    nerraw
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    9/6/2005 10:46 PM
    I'm with Una on this one. I couldn't care less what the nationality of the band is and what sort of state the irish scene is. Who cares? If a band are good they are good. But for some reason, Dublin seems to be obsessed with the whiney self obsessed singer songwriters. No-cares that your cat left you for a mouse. I thought HWCH was a ridiculous idea. An all Irish festival for Irish bands. Could we not have a good festival with good bands?
    Una
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    9/7/2005 12:13 AM
    Connected Magazine is certainly no 'competition' for Hotpress.
    mutch
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    9/8/2005 9:48 PM
    he brings up some good points, some better points are made by some of the usual fountains of sanity here in cluas of course. theres some great fertilizer in what one or two comments consist of though! its not like these bands are forcing themselves on anyone is it now? i mean, ive never been kidnapped and taken to a gig, (i wish i was though, it'd be some craic. oh girls aloud, when will you hold me falsely imprisoned!) some old dude (my vocabulary is...good) that produced pop hits in the 60's and 70's made a great point a while ago on rte1 radio (fountain of great music-if you know when to listen and who to listen to) he basically said that about 15 years ago, if he got a tape/cd of a band, it was usually because someone else heard the act and thought the act was worth investing in. These days awful, self absorbed singer songwriters/bands who've read every biography of every singer songwriter/band but learned absolutly nothing, can go in and make a reasonable demo for a few moths rent in a dalkey duplex. (so they live it rough for a year in, lets say, drumcondra? to save the money to record?! heh) basically, quantity up, quality down/stays the same if you can root it out. But to my main point, which kind of cancels out my off the cuff ranting...its the friggin indo for chrissakes! who takes that piece of used food seriously?! to attempt some sort of literary illustration (im a self confessed dim wit and i accept this graciously with whiskey, no water) the indo is "nothing but a chav in rugger bugger's clothing", as ross o'carroll kelly might put it!(did you hear that? ! Independant news and Media shares just plummeted!) i should probably stop now before i mention how i feel about hotpress. angry and insulted. there, i've said it.(and STILL no one gives a feck, ) and stoat are cool. he's entitled to his opinion but stoat have great tunes and a brilliant attitude to music for which they will be remembered for when the future does eventually get them!
    Unicron
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    9/9/2005 9:36 AM
    While the fact that people can record a decent demo in a bedroom never mind a studio means that there is an awful lot of s**te being put out there you can't forget that the upside of it is that those decent musicians/bands are able to (and this sounds w**ky but it's true) ahem, "pursue their musical vision" without interference from others. A lot of guys who produce bands starting out just have a standard bag of tricks that they apply to recording depending on what they sound like ("these guys sound a bit like The Pixies so the knobs on the desk go this way") and it means that everything winds up being a bit homogenised and standardised, that's not to say that bands can't benifit from a decent producer (if they can find one) but really, how hard is it to get a handle on Cubase? Often it's hard to describe waht you want something to sound like and much easier just to do it yourself. Then there's the A&R folk who often (often??? an understatement perhaps) are more concerned with getting a nice commercial sheen on the music at the expence of having the music be good.
    kierry
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    9/11/2005 7:17 PM
    well, there's enough decent bands in dublin for someone to make a breakthrough...
    delorentos
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    9/19/2005 12:45 AM
    there's tons of decent acts in ireland. If you made a compilation of the best 20 tracks from irish bands it would stand up against any album in the charts...
    Unicron
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    9/19/2005 3:16 PM
    Yeah but is decent good enough?
    milkman
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    9/19/2005 6:33 PM
    i wonder do people in belguim/france/spain have the same conversations. we have a great music scene in ireland, but its never going to be the american or english one for one reason - population. less people, less bands, less crowds, less records sold etc.


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