Rev Jules Veteran Member Posts:1041  
| 6/8/2005 7:25 PM |
|
Have just heard 'Til Kingdom Come' the so called country ditty that Coldplay 'wrote for' Johnny Cash. Oh mother of sweet divine Jesus in Heaven ! You have got to be fr*ck*ing kidding me! Those bedwetters really are delusional. Hey Chris, ditch the Fairtrade Coffee for Malt Liquor and your Hollywood Princess for some strippers and maybe, in a thousand years time, you might be up to writing something in the distant vincity of Johnny Cash. Bleuch !  |
|
|
|
jmc105 Basic Member Posts:188
| 6/8/2005 11:41 PM |
|
the bould johnny must've liked it, since he was set to record it before he died...
---According to singer Chris Martin, they recorded a song for the country legend, but he didn’t manage to complete the vocals before his passing.
"We did a song for Johnny Cash," he told the band’s official website. "We recorded it with Rick Rubin and everything and all that was missing was his vocals. He was going to fly out to LA the week after he died. It’s really sad."---
http://www.nme.com/news/106874.htm
|
|
|
|
BinokularVeteran Member Posts:1665
| 6/9/2005 12:17 AM |
|
|
Folks, need I remind you that Mr. Cash also chose to record The Eagles "Desperado" for American Four? Just cos the dudes a legend doesn't mean he always had exquisite good taste, anyway as Picasso once said: "Good taste is the enemy of creativity"
|
|
|
|
Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 6/9/2005 8:02 AM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by Binokular
Just cos the dudes a legend doesn't mean he always had exquisite good taste, anyway as Picasso once said: "Good taste is the enemy of creativity"
Dude, I agree with that, I always say that people should listen to his awful Christmas records to get a fully rounded picture of the man. 'Til Kingdom Come' was worse than that and probably a good hint that the time had come to go to the big Ryman in the sky. Wouldn't it have been awful if that was the last thing he is remembered for and not 'Hurt' (Trent Reznor, now there is a man who knows how to write from sheer life experience). |
|
|
|
jmc105Basic Member Posts:188
| 6/9/2005 11:22 AM |
|
|
so... rev jules and binokular don't like the song = good taste. johnny cash liked it = bad taste. that about right?! or could it not just be that different people have different taste in music...
|
|
|
|
Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 6/9/2005 12:01 PM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by jmc105
so... rev jules and binokular don't like the song = good taste. johnny cash liked it = bad taste. that about right?! or could it not just be that different people have different taste in music...
Don't even try and discuss country music with me because, for me, arguing with you on this topic is like hunting dairy cows with a M-16 and Lazer scope. This piece of crap by Chris Martin is not country music and I find it laughable that he even attempts to try to pretend it is, but then Coldplay are desperate to ape U2 in every way they possibly can. |
|
|
|
jmc105Basic Member Posts:188
| 6/9/2005 12:22 PM |
|
|
did i mention the word 'country'? i can't speak for chris martin, but wanting to collaborate with an artist surely doesn't mean that one has to morph completely into the style of the other. you don't like it. that doesn't mean it's a bad song.
as for dairy cows and m-16's, i'm not sure their cloven hooves could operate the trigger, but i probably wouldn't hang around to find out. cows with guns...
|
|
|
|
spurtacusBasic Member Posts:229
| 6/9/2005 12:31 PM |
|
|
jules=snob
*runs*
|
|
|
|
Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 6/9/2005 12:46 PM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by spurtacus
jules=snob
*runs*
I am proud to be evangelical about country music but I wouldn't say that I am a country music snob. Anyone who listens to artists such as Jim White or The Dirty South is just as involved in where the music is going as someone who sticks to their George Strait and Merle Haggard tunes. But Coldplay wanted to tap into that genre and grab some of the history and mystique for themselves even though they are not, in any way, a country act so, yes, I'll call 'em as I see 'em. In the meantime, I await the Damien Rice contribution to a Kenny Chesney Tribute album. Maybe Damo could call it, "I Wish I Had A Tractor (It Sure Would Come in Handy on the Lentil Farm"  |
|
|
|
jmc105Basic Member Posts:188
| 6/9/2005 12:57 PM |
|
|
he didn't say 'country music snob', he just said 'snob'. i'm sure he didn't mean it tho...
are you really saying that it is wrong for a band which is 'not in any way a country act' to collaborate with someone who is a 'country act'?
|
|
|
|
Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 6/9/2005 1:05 PM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by jmc105
[br are you really saying that it is wrong for a band which is 'not in any way a country act' to collaborate with someone who is a 'country act'?
I'm sorry but what do you mean by 'collaborate' I understand it as two or more artists actually working together, preferably when they are still alive (the best approach really) eg: Norah Jones & Ray Charles or Willie Nelson & Sting. Writing some crappy, old dirge and then whining when your attempts to get a legendary star to perform it come to naught (ie: star's death) is not collaboration. Have you got a touch of the Yoda's ? "With the English Language a problem has he" |
|
|
|
jmc105Basic Member Posts:188
| 6/9/2005 1:55 PM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rev Jules
I'm sorry but what do you mean by 'collaborate' I understand it as two or more artists actually working together, preferably when they are still alive (the best approach really) eg: Norah Jones & Ray Charles or Willie Nelson & Sting. Writing some crappy, old dirge and then whining when your attempts to get a legendary star to perform it come to naught (ie: star's death) is not collaboration. Have you got a touch of the Yoda's ? "With the English Language a problem has he"
way to dodge the question. of course, dodging awkward questions is something you're quite good at. you've certainly had enough practice...
anyway, copied this from some random dictionary website:
collaborate:
Main Entry: col·lab·o·rate
...1 : to work jointly with others or together especially in an intellectual endeavor.
now, arguing about what does or doesn't constitute 'working together' is almost certainly a pointless excercise, but, in my opinion, using the word 'collaboration' is a pretty good way to describe an established singer (musician, artist, whatever) going into a studio with a band to record a song.
and if you carefully read this thread, young padawan, you will see that I did not, in fact, suggest that "Writing some crappy, old dirge and then whining when your attempts to get a legendary star to perform it come to naught (ie: star's death)" was an example of collaboration. what i said was: "wanting to collaborate with an artist surely doesn't mean that one has to morph completely into the style of the other". coldplay wanted to collaborate, which is to say, work together with, johnny cash, (and he wanted to collaborate with them), but his death prevented that from happening.
|
|
|
|
Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 6/9/2005 2:01 PM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by jmc105
and if you carefully read this thread, young padawan, you will see that I did not, in fact, suggest that "Writing some crappy, old dirge and then whining when your attempts to get a legendary star to perform it come to naught (ie: star's death)" was an example of collaboration. what i said was: "wanting to collaborate with an artist surely doesn't mean that one has to morph completely into the style of the other". coldplay wanted to collaborate, which is to say, work together with, johnny cash, (and he wanted to collaborate with them), but his death prevented that from happening.
Check your own posts Yoda, the quote I replied to was, "are you really saying that it is wrong for a band which is 'not in any way a country act' to collaborate with someone who is a 'country act'?" (Posted - 09 Jun 2005 : 12:57:18). Changing your story now are you or just not sure of what you are trying to say ? |
|
|
|
jmc105Basic Member Posts:188
| 6/9/2005 2:17 PM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rev Jules
Check your own posts Yoda, the quote I replied to was, "are you really saying that it is wrong for a band which is 'not in any way a country act' to collaborate with someone who is a 'country act'?" (Posted - 09 Jun 2005 : 12:57:18). Changing your story now are you or just not sure of what you are trying to say ?
do i really have to explain this to you? i guess so.
the question i asked, which you quoted above, was a general question in response to your comment that: "Coldplay wanted to tap into that genre and grab some of the history and mystique for themselves even though they are not, in any way, a country act."
you questioned my grasp of the english language for thinking that "Writing some crappy, old dirge and then whining when your attempts to get a legendary star to perform it come to naught (ie: star's death)" was an example of collaboration. but i did not say that coldplay in fact collaborated with johnny cash, i said they wanted to. understand? |
|
|
|
Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 6/9/2005 2:29 PM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by jmc105
quote:
Originally posted by Rev Jules
Check your own posts Yoda, the quote I replied to was, "are you really saying that it is wrong for a band which is 'not in any way a country act' to collaborate with someone who is a 'country act'?" (Posted - 09 Jun 2005 : 12:57:18). Changing your story now are you or just not sure of what you are trying to say ?
do i really have to explain this to you? i guess so.
the question i asked, which you quoted above, was a general question in response to your comment that: "Coldplay wanted to tap into that genre and grab some of the history and mystique for themselves even though they are not, in any way, a country act."
you questioned my grasp of the english language for thinking that "Writing some crappy, old dirge and then whining when your attempts to get a legendary star to perform it come to naught (ie: star's death)" was an example of collaboration. but i did not say that coldplay in fact collaborated with johnny cash, i said they wanted to. understand?
Let me just reiterate my original point, which all your posts are in response to. I think that this song 'Til Kingdom Come' is crap and that it was unworthy of Cash who did not collaborate on it in any way. Furthermore, if it had been his final recording, it would have been an unworthy epitaph, in my opinion. It is fruitless in a practical sense to talk of what might have been. Cash didn't record it, thats where the story ends. |
|
|
|
jmc105Basic Member Posts:188
| 6/9/2005 3:30 PM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rev Jules
Look, you can change what you say everytime you are challenged on it all you like and put things in neat little quote marks if it makes you happy but my original point, which all your posts are in response to, is that I thought the song was crap, that Chris Martin is delusional if he thinks he is going to write himself into Johnny Cash's artistic legacy and that the song itself was unworthy of Cash who did not, no matter what anyone tries to spin, actually do any work on it or, in fact, record it. Now, do you understand ?
1. show me one instance where i changed what i said in this thread. use quotation marks, question marks, whatever you like - i'd love to see exactly what you're referring to.
2. all of my posts are not in response to your original post. all of my posts are subsequent to your original post, which is not the same thing. of course, it's a handy way to avoid dealing with any particular issue that was raised along the way.
3. your opinion of the song in question is entirely up to you. my initial point was simply that johnny cash must have liked it - perhaps even thought it 'worthy' of himself - since he was set to record it, but died before he had the chance.
to answer your final question, i understood your comments on coldplay perfectly well, both in your first post and your most recent one. i also understand why you then suggested that i change what i say whenever i am challenged on it. so i'll ask you again: show me one instance where i changed what i said in the course of this thread. |
|
|
|
BinokularVeteran Member Posts:1665
| 6/9/2005 4:14 PM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by jmc105
so... rev jules and binokular don't like the song = good taste. johnny cash liked it = bad taste. that about right?! or could it not just be that different people have different taste in music...
wow, quite a little discussion going since I last visited. Just to clarify though, I haven't even heard the song and haven't made any judgements good or bad. The point I was more making is great artists don't always do things are perceived as being credible and in line with "good taste", as sticking with that is kinda limiting.
As for the issue of Jules=snob, nah not quite, I'd say its more Jules=Country Rockist (rockist: one who judges music against the ideals of a specific genre)
*runs, jumps into 13 year old GTi, tears off down the road like a cheeky boy racer* 
|
|
|
|
sweetieBasic Member Posts:132
| 6/9/2005 4:15 PM |
|
|
I feel like the only child of a loveless marriage.
|
|
|
|
Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 6/9/2005 4:46 PM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by Binokular
As for the issue of Jules=snob, nah not quite, I'd say its more Jules=Country Rockist (rockist: one who judges music against the ideals of a specific genre)
Country Rockist ? I like it ! 
I would demure about saying that I judge music against the ideals of the country genre. Rather I would judge music which attempts to be part of the genre of country music against the ideals of that genre. For example, I am a big fan of Matt Johnson / The The's reworking of Hank Williams songs, 'Hanky Panky'. Or Ray Charles' 'Modern Sounds in County and Western'. Wonderful music. Equally, I think that Nursat Fateh Ali Kahn is brill too, and he has nothing to do with Nashville. |
|
|
|
jmc105Basic Member Posts:188
| 6/10/2005 12:07 AM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rev Jules
Originally posted by Binokular
I would judge music which attempts to be part of the genre of country music against the ideals of that genre.
2 points. first - how do you know what coldplay's motives were in this project? you also wrote that " Coldplay wanted to tap into that genre and grab some of the history and mystique for themselves". i'm not saying you're wrong, because i don't know either - only the band themselves do. but considering that coldplay are one of the most successful bands on the planet, in every sense of the word, and assuming that they don't share your low opinion of their music, surely they don't feel the need to grab onto the coat-tails of anybody else? chris martin dedicated the grammy that coldplay won for 'clocks' to johnny cash - maybe they just admire and respect him as an artist, and wanted to collaborate with him on a song? Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate, as they say, like.
second - even if coldplay aren't fit to lick the dust from johnny cash's cowboy boots, would it have been such a huge disaster if this project had happened as planned? fair enough, you don't like the song. i'm sure others do, possibly even the man who planned to sing it on the album. regardless, coldplay are going to sell millions of copies of x&y. that would have been millions of people hearing johnny cash's voice, some of them surely for the first time, and it's quite likely that some of those would have been turned on to johnny cash by this album - which would have been a positive thing, no?
that being said, i noticed that you, quite literally, changed your story, as it were, in your post at 14:29 today. does this mean that you won't be showing me where i changed what i said when i was challenged? cos i'll be ever so disappointed...
|
|
|
|
Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 6/10/2005 12:24 AM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by Binokular
Just to clarify though, I haven't even heard the song and haven't made any judgements good or bad. The point I was more making is great artists don't always do things are perceived as being credible and in line with "good taste", as sticking with that is kinda limiting.
Where were we Herr Docktor ? Ahh, yes. Artists who play it safe don't always go in new and exciting directions - Coldplay for example, three albums that all sound the same. Who would you think, apart from an artist like Cash (and we are talking here about actual discographies here and not wishlists) took great chances in their music ? |
|
|
|
jmc105Basic Member Posts:188
| 6/10/2005 12:40 AM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rev Jules
Artists who play it safe don't always go in new and exciting directions
surely artists who play it safe NEVER go in new and exciting directions...
quote:
Originally posted by Rev Jules
Where were we Herr Docktor ?
you know, if i were the sensitive type, you might have hurt my feelings just now - it really is rather bad manners, old chap, to simply ignore somebody halfway through a conversation. and i'd made such an effort to be nice... 
hint: if you want to have a private conversation with binokular, why don't you use the email-member function?
*strokes imaginary goatee* i wonder: when you find yourself losing an argument, do you always ignore the other person and hope they'll go away? cos i'm beginning to notice a pattern here... |
|
|
|
Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 6/10/2005 8:50 AM |
|
|
Lets recap on my thoughts
a) I don't much like Coldplay
b) I love Country Music
c) I think 'Til Kingdom Come' is crap
d) Johnny Cash did not either compose, co-compose or record 'Til Kingdom Come'
e) This is a music discussion board where people air their views on music.
f) There is a difference between wanting to collaborate and actually collaborating just as there is a difference between wanting to go to see U2 in Croke Park and actually going to see U2 in Croke Park.
|
|
|
|
jmc105Basic Member Posts:188
| 6/10/2005 10:55 AM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rev Jules
Lets recap on my thoughts
a) I don't much like Coldplay
b) I love Country Music
c) I think 'Til Kingdom Come' is crap
d) Johnny Cash did not either compose, co-compose or record 'Til Kingdom Come'
e) This is a music discussion board where people air their views on music.
f) There is a difference between wanting to collaborate and actually collaborating just as there is a difference between wanting to go to see U2 in Croke Park and actually going to see U2 in Croke Park.
a) clearly. not at the top of my list either, altho i do think they're a good band.
b) and i'm sure country music loves you too.
c) yes you do. i actually like it - but then when i heard it first i knew nothing of the connection with johnny cash, so i just took it on it's own merits. i happen to like simplicity in music, and i think it's a nice folky song. each to his own.
d) did i say he composed, co-composed or recorded it? all i said was that he was going to record it, so presumably he had a higher opinion of the song that you do. which i think was a relevant point in response to your "it's an insult to country music and johnny cash"-themed posts.
e) yes it is. unfortunately you couldn't confine yourself to music discussion - the temptation to send some childish insults my way was obviously too great. i find it hilarious that you accused me of changing my story when i was 'challenged', only to edit it out of your post while i was replying - afraid of being challenged on it, perhaps. and if you are interested in discussing music, why did you ignore the two points i raised about i) coldplay's motives and ii) the hypothetical outcome of a colloboration like what was planned?
f) this was the exact point i made when you accused me of having problems with the english language. i never said that a collaboration had taken place, i said it had been planned.
i posted a reply on this thread because i'd just heard the song myself, was interested by the connection with johnny cash, and had an opinion on it i wanted to express. you subsequently accused me of having problems understanding/using english, and, briefly, of changing my story when i was challenged on it. well, i challenge you to either support or retract those accusations. altho what i expect is that you will either ignore that completely, or else post yet another summation of your thoughts on the song - another of your strategies for avoiding questions you don't want to answer. hopefully you'll have grown a pair overnight, and be prepared to take responsibility for what you said. doubt it tho... |
|
|
|
vandalaBasic Member Posts:267
| 6/10/2005 11:59 AM |
|
|
Lordy, lord.
|
|
|
|
BinokularVeteran Member Posts:1665
| 6/10/2005 1:48 PM |
|
|
Why am I reminded of the energiser bunny? ya know, flick the right switch and he just keeps going and going...
|
|
|
|
Norman SchwarzkopfBasic Member Posts:427
| 6/10/2005 2:25 PM |
|
|
This week on Dr.Phil...
|
|
|
|
jmc105Basic Member Posts:188
| 6/10/2005 4:17 PM |
|
|
vandala, binokular, norman - you might think there's something wrong with the fact that i'm not prepared to take s**t from rev jules, that's your opinion, you're entitled to it, and to be honest i'd have to be dead to care less. the reality is that this was a reasonably interesting discussion until rev jules decided to try to wind me up with typical bulls**t, insults etc. maybe you'd be happy to accept a post like "Check your own posts Yoda, the quote I replied to was, "are you really saying that it is wrong for a band which is 'not in any way a country act' to collaborate with someone who is a 'country act'?" (Posted - 09 Jun 2005 : 12:57:18). Changing your story now are you or just not sure of what you are trying to say ?". i don't believe in letting people who attempt to manipulate and bully others do and say what they want. while i can and do laugh at the sheer pathetic childishness of the man, that doesn't mean i won't press him to either stand over what he has said, or else to admit that he has once again been talking through his arse. now i'm off to enjoy the sunshine and the company of good friends in the local beergarden...
|
|
|
|
vandalaBasic Member Posts:267
| 6/10/2005 4:27 PM |
|
|
Watch out the bees don't sting you.
|
|
|
|
Norman SchwarzkopfBasic Member Posts:427
| 6/10/2005 5:10 PM |
|
|
Music is fun. I like music.
|
|
|
|
aidan Advanced Member Posts:638
| 6/10/2005 7:19 PM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by vandala
Watch out the bees don't sting you.
well, if you CHECK what he ACTUALLY WROTE, you'll SEE that the BEES are his GOOD FRIENDS, so they won't STING HIM at ALL!!!
|
|
|
|
BinokularVeteran Member Posts:1665
| 6/10/2005 8:09 PM |
|
hahahaha, very good.
OK, we better stop the messing (me included!) and get back to music or I'm just going to end up having to lock this thread, which would be a shame really.
As Jules was saying, "Who would you think, apart from an artist like Cash (and we are talking here about actual discographies here and not wishlists) took great chances in their music ?"
I think thats a question thats harder to answer than it first appears. A lot of artists like say New Order went off in a lot of different directions, but its hard to say if they were taking chances because they didn't have many "failed experiments", then you have people like Aphex Twin who have such a genius-prankster mythology built up around themselves that when they do release something rubbish, its just taken as "oh he's releasing rubbish because he wants to, he can do better, but he just enjoys messing with our heads"
So I think all you can be definitive about is the artists who have really stuck their neck out, followed their muse, and got their fingers burnt with a record or two that didn't quite work. I think Neil Young probably figures in there somewhere, he's certainly released a couple of albums that have been erased from the critical radar and public conciousness. I'd love to hear the electronic albums he made!
Also Cat Stevens, mainly known for his genteel folk music, really stuck his neck out in 1977 when he released a great 12" proto-electro instrumental called "Was Dog a Donut". I did a double take when I heard it first, surely its not THAT Cat Stevens? But yes, it is indeed Mr Cat "Wrote "Father and Son", "Morning has broken" and now cant even get on an Aeroplane" Stevens. Amazing! |
|
|
|
jmc105Basic Member Posts:188
| 6/11/2005 10:51 AM |
|
quote:
Originally posted by Binokular
hahahaha, very good.
OK, we better stop the messing (me included!) and get back to music or I'm just going to end up having to lock this thread, which would be a shame really.
lock the thread? and end the spectacle of rev jules, vandala, norman, aidan and your fine self fellating each other? that really would beeeeeeee a shame...
as for artists taking chances in their music, moving in new directions etc., surely bob dylan has to be at the top of that pile? |
|
|
|
Rev JulesVeteran Member Posts:1041
| 6/11/2005 11:14 AM |
|
|
Willie Nelson is another guy who has followed his muse, even to Reggae.
Pat Boone, whose 'In A Metal Mood' showed a whole new side to that king of family friendly, easy listening would be another. His version of AC/DC's 'Its a long Way to the Top (If You Wanna Rock and Roll)' works out fine, against all the odds.
|
|
|
|
UnicronVeteran Member Posts:1696
| 6/11/2005 3:58 PM |
|
|
Are musicians who dramatically change what they do always being brave or is it sometimes cowardice?
Take Radiohead for example, whenever they start a new record they throw out all the old methodology that they've used in the past and try to make the album in a new manner, now you could say that it's very brave to ditch a successful formula but one could argue that they do it because they fear that they won't top what came before using the same methods, some acts spend 2 or 3 albums refining how they do things until they reach their peak, had they continued on the same path post OK Computer how good could the last few records have been? Of course the counter argument to that is that some acts basically remake the same record multiple times and eventually run out of ideas (hellllllooooo Coldpaly ).
|
|
|
|
jmc105Basic Member Posts:188
| 6/11/2005 4:49 PM |
|
|
while commercial and critical factors will obviously have some effect, i really don't think true artists/musicians etc change will their whole philosophy based on what the fans/critics might think. across the whole of the arts, true artists follow their own convictions, their own beliefs - and when they choose to do that, even in the face of criticism or commercial failure, that's courage.
i'd imagine that was why bob dylan moved away from (or, as many of his fans felt, "betrayed") his folk roots, why radiohead wrote kid a, why joyce wrote finnegan's wake, why schoenberg invented serialism. i think it's when musicians/artists start working from some other motivation, like making more money, or avoiding negative criticism, that's when they become cowards.
so, to answer unicron's question, i think... it depends!
|
|
|
|