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Last Post 9/13/2004 1:30 PM by  Rev Jules
Are Damien Rice fans really Young Fogeys ?
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Rev Jules
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9/13/2004 1:30 PM
    There is an article in today's Irish Independent (13/9/04) on the subject of the rise of the Young Fogey. In the section titled, 'Music for Young Fogeys' the author mentions Damien Rice's album 'O' as being a safe choice of record for young fogeys who, "want to support the local music scene but want to give the anger and avant garde a miss". Over to y'all.
    El Duderino
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    9/13/2004 1:48 PM
    That's an interesting point of view. If I agree with this statement it means that I agree that Damien Rice is doing nothing new and I don't really believe that this is the case. I know he's not exactly spearheading a new genre but he does what he does in his own style. What are "the anger and avant garde" bands that this journalist refers to? Does he specify what he would see as being angry and avant garde?
    Binokular
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    9/13/2004 2:31 PM
    Damien Rice thread! In the mood for a flame war Jules? Even taking Damien Rice out of the equation, I have noticed that the tastes of most people in my age group and below tend to be a bit more conservative than my own, but thats not saying much. I can understand young people wanting to give "angry" music a miss, anger and angst in music isn't really a virtue is it? I loved the Smashing Pumpkins as a teenager but the anger in those songs in itself wasn't what made them great (or Nirvana for that matter). If todays youth are less angry that can only be a good thing right? I doubt it though, looking round Cork city where hundreds of pseudo-goth-emo-whatever kids seem to be forming shouty metal type bands, they're as angry as ever. Damien rice really is not doing anything new, there is no territory here that hasn't been mined by greater talents before him. Yet at the same time it seems unfair to single him out when the Irish music scene in general is lacking much in terms of the genuinely avant-garde? Many seem to be playing it a bit too safe in order to maintain credibility. The one thing I will say for definite, is that the "young fogey" does exist (Whether they listen to Damien Rice or not). I know some people who could match that description; Inoffensive record collections, not really going out and just partying like young people should and worrying about their pensions before the age of 25, but those kind of people have probably always existed?
    mutch
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    9/13/2004 5:49 PM
    maybe the young fogey is not new but the people that identify them as such through their characteristics (the inoffensive EVERYTHING, including clothes, and that accent thats not exactly anything, anyone heard this? or have i lost it beyond all hope.)are a new type of irish character. ...(bit of a stretch really) the modern charlie churches/street angel house devil?, the smug soft bellied middle classes? v neck sweaters worn with the same frequency as fashionable causes....(rant!)or something like that...after all, people adapt, they dont go away! still a great country to be in despite them though. plus they make great slagging fodder on a session.
    QsySue
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    9/14/2004 2:01 AM
    I don't know, when I saw Damien in Seattle he was leaning pretty close to the angsty side of things. Very intense and abrasive. I loved it.
    karlvin
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    9/14/2004 9:29 AM
    I agree with QsySue , I saw damien Rice in galsto and he was in a kick ass mood , nothing safe about him ! anything that supports real music and not the crap in the charts is great , whether its so called "safe" music or not !
    Binokular
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    9/14/2004 9:52 AM
    Whats "real" music Karlvin? I do get a little tired of people attributing greatness to music because of what its not (e.g. chart music) rather than what it is. With Damien Rice selling copies of "O" and B-Sides by the truckload, how can it not be classed as chart music? Thats not saying that Damien Rice is rubbish, what I'm saying is: why the hostility towards "chart" music? This to me is the real reason that Damien Rice is the "safe" choice. Its not that he isn't angry (he is), its that much Like REM in the 90s he has become the default choice for those that would like to think that they are listening to something "alternative" and "credible", whatever that is. Buy "O" and hey presto, instant respectability is added your CD collenction. If you like him, cool, I'm not saying that everyone who buys the CD buys it with that motive, but lets not pretend listening to Damien Rice is somehow superior to listening to Natasha Bedingfield (whose recent single was quite good actually). (For QsySue: Natasha Bedingfield is a UK pop star who was number one in the Irish Singles charts recently, substitute Beyonce for Nathasha and that last paragraph will probably make more sence)
    Unicron
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    9/14/2004 10:59 AM
    You're kidding right? "These words" was terrible :)
    Binokular
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    9/14/2004 11:34 AM
    Nope, dead serious. I thought "These words" was pretty good, I'm not just saying that, I actually bought the single, laugh if you like. It's a simple catchy pop single, but whats wrong with that? Lyrics were probably as good as anything Damien Rice has written too. The exact same kind of wear your heart on your sleeve vibe, the only difference is that this doesn't pretend to be anything more than it is.
    Unicron
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    9/14/2004 2:14 PM
    You need to read an interview then, she's certainly saying that she's more than she is in them if I remember correctly. You like it, that's cool. I just thought it was really terrible pop.
    Binokular
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    9/14/2004 2:30 PM
    Ah, the Micheal Jackson effect taking hold on her early then? One minute hes just writing great pop (admittedly while having to put up with his old man kicking the crap out of him), the next he's believing he's the Messiah or something... I haven't read any interviews, but the track itself comes across as pretty unpretentious, just straight up pop with a hip hop beat underneath.
    milky
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    9/14/2004 2:46 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Binokular
    Nope, dead serious. I thought "These words" was pretty good, I'm not just saying that, I actually bought the single, laugh if you like. It's a simple catchy pop single, but whats wrong with that? Lyrics were probably as good as anything Damien Rice has written too. The exact same kind of wear your heart on your sleeve vibe, the only difference is that this doesn't pretend to be anything more than it is.
    nothing i ever write is good enough - couldnt have said it better myself natasha,at least she can admit it!! can i ask you binokular what you mean when you say - the only difference is that this doesnt pretend to be anything more than it is?
    mutch
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    9/14/2004 3:09 PM
    re THESE WORDS. lyrics are clever whoever wrote them. gives the listener credit.
    jmc105
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    9/14/2004 5:08 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Binokular ..With Damien Rice selling copies of "O" and B-Sides by the truckload, how can it not be classed as chart music?... ...lets not pretend listening to Damien Rice is somehow superior to listening to Natasha Bedingfield (For QsySue: Natasha Bedingfield is a UK pop star who was number one in the Irish Singles charts recently, substitute Beyonce for Nathasha and that last paragraph will probably make more sence)...
    is it right to use the same term ("chart music") to describe both i) music which was manufactured purely with chart success in mind and ii)music like "o", which was created with no thought at all for towards commercial success, but subsequently (eventually) did very well in the charts? also, you seem to suggest that there is some connection between the merit of an album (in a musical sense), and it's eventual level of commercial success. "o" was around for a long time before it started climbing the charts - surely the question of how good or bad it is as an album has nothing to do with the number of copies sold, or indeed with who its neighbours are in the top-ten... people of course buy albums for all sorts of reasons, and younger people are possibly more likely to buy certain albums as a source or badge of an identity that will be accepted by their peers. but does the act of being purchased by an individual or group somehow change an album - make it less worthy? hitler was an artist, a (failed) painter. does that diminish art? personally i don't believe that it's right to re-evaluate, or even to evaluate music based on how commercially successful it is, because whether one person buys a cd or one million people do, it's still the same cd. it's the same old question again: can a singer/band be popular and credible at the same time?
    mutch
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    9/14/2004 5:23 PM
    of course they can, its just if they start out trading on the "I'm not trying to be popular" card, then usually they dont know how to adapt when people just like the music regardless of what the artist wants.
    Binokular
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    9/14/2004 5:51 PM
    JMC you kinda missed my point. You just used the term "chart music" like its a negative thing. Why should you have a problem with Damien Rice being described as chart music? Its in the charts isn't it. I feel that the definition of chart music should stop there, its in the charts with no negative or positive connotations. I believe pop music is a great thing, creating music that is populist (intended for the masses) is a noble thing. Don't confuse populism with rampant commercialism, which of course is ever present in much of the music industry. You ask about being popular and credible, but what is credibility only acceptance by group of individuals? If Damien Rice is credible, doesn't that make it "safe" to a certain extent, that your friends are less likely to laugh at you than say if you bought Abba Gold? (which in todays weird world is probably no longer cheesy but the height of cool, I dunno, I can't keep up) Milky, I'm not sure how to answer your question about what I meant, I think the statement was pretty straightforward. Take it pretty much as read, I'll get back to you when I can find "these words" to explain it a bit more
    Vent My Spleen
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    9/14/2004 5:57 PM
    For the record, I think the Beddingfield tune is a catchy little blighter. As for Damien Rice, there is always a market for music that is slightly left of centre yet thoroughly unadventurous - David Gray, Moby etc etc. He has managed to retain a certain underground cachet and shift a lot of records, so fair play to him - though I do find the appeal of his music baffling.
    karlvin
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    9/15/2004 1:44 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Binokular
    Whats "real" music Karlvin? I do get a little tired of people attributing greatness to music because of what its not (e.g. chart music) rather than what it is. With Damien Rice selling copies of "O" and B-Sides by the truckload, how can it not be classed as chart music?
    Well Binokular to me real music is music that is produced without a cynical end in mind, or if it is with a cynical end in mind make sure it's a damn good song ! If you want to sell a truck load of CDs that's easy write some charty, en-vogue, dancy, poptarts rubbish. I agree with your slant on damien rice I feel he is almost now chart music, but if you re-read my post I wasn't attributing greatness to his music just saying that IMO when it was written it wasn't with an end in mind to sell a s**T load of CDs. As for Natasha I agree a great little pop tune with a damn catchy hook - good luck to her she could have taken the cynical route and released a heap of music that was in the same vein has her brother and sold a heap. Instead she's trying to do something different.
    Binokular
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    9/15/2004 4:40 PM
    OK Karlvin, but you haven't been reading my posts either! What I'm trying to get at is that I just hate people using the term chart music or "charty" as negative connotation in itself (which you appear to do in your last post). As I said before, Whats wrong with creating music that you want to be popular? Theres a blurry line between rampant commercialism and creating music with your audience in mind, its hard at times to tell the difference. Grandmaster Flash is the perfect embodiment of that ideology. Like Kool Herc His records and DJing were aimed straight at his audience, which in his case was the dancefloor rather than the the pop charts. All he wanted to do is make people dance, which is simultaneosly selfish by being a major ego booster and generous in spirit by giving people a good time. If your intended audience happens to be the record buying public, well I think thats just as legitimate. Making music to please yourself is a natural human thing. Kids do it all the time, making up little tunes, but "indie" artists and singer-songwriter types sometimes take things a bit too far. You get this "I made this music for me and I don't care if anyone else likes it" kind of vibe sometimes or Damon Albarn saying "I don't want to sell records". Well he shouldn't have signed that record contract then! It comes across as a bit of a conceit. This kind of idea of "semi-popular" music (see Mark Godfreys Cluas article "Rock Criticism, a dying art"), runing for the artistic and moral high ground. So called "indie" and "alternative" music has never been so heavily marketed, you only have to look at the banner ads on sites like Popmatters and Pitchforkmedia to see what I mean, and then theres the whole NME thing. Just because a record company is targeting a niche market doesn't mean that the marketing involved doesn't have the potential to be equally cynical. If you want to sell a truck load of CDs it isn't "easy" to write a tune that you can guarantee will be commercially successful. That is the biggest myth in popular music. If you were capable of doing that, it would make you some kind of genius, with a Godlike understanding of hooks, rythm and melody. Even the Neptunes won't be able to keep their success going forever and Cathy Dennis (who wrote Kylies "can't get you out of my head") has had her share of also rans. No, if you want to sell a load of CDs what you need is marketing and airplay, and lots of it. Even then success is not guaranteed. Check the bargain bin of your local record store for proof of that. Oh, just a minor point, but I can't let a generalisation like "en-vogue, dancy, poptarts rubbish" go either! I never liked en-vogue, but the phrase seems to indicate a whole anti R&B, Dance music and pop thing going on. why the apparent hostility to these genres? maybe I'm taking you too literally as your other comments seem to indicate that you don't actually dismiss entire genres. Milky, to finally get around to answering your question both Natasha Bedingfields "These Words" and many of Damien Rice songs are simple heart on sleeve tunes about love, but Damien Rices delivery on record (to my ears anyway, and remember I'm talking about on record, not live performance), seems to try to take the artistic high ground that theres a kind of deeper meaining to these songs, which I don't think is there. Kinda playing the tortured soul card a bit too much. I know I'll put the noses of a lot of fans out of joint just for saying that, but that is my honest impression from listening to his music, so hey, guys, don't go all fire and brimstone on my ass for being honest. I'm not sure if anything I've written above makes sense, I'm sleep deprived and majorly overdosed on caffiene and sugar after 4 espressos and a bottle of coke so far today.
    jmc105
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    9/15/2004 5:12 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Binokular
    JMC you kinda missed my point. You just used the term "chart music" like its a negative thing. Why should you have a problem with Damien Rice being described as chart music? Its in the charts isn't it. I feel that the definition of chart music should stop there, its in the charts with no negative or positive connotations... ...You ask about being popular and credible, but what is credibility only acceptance by group of individuals? If Damien Rice is credible, doesn't that make it "safe" to a certain extent, that your friends are less likely to laugh at you than say if you bought Abba Gold? (which in todays weird world is probably no longer cheesy but the height of cool, I dunno, I can't keep up)
    fair enough, you feel that 'chart music' should simply mean 'music which is in the charts'. maybe vulcans and other logical creatures would agree with you , but surely the term 'chart music' does have connotations - whether negative or positive depends on the individual - just like the term 'elevator music' does. to me at least "chart" music suggests the boyband/poptart/choreographed/louis walsh-managed "artists" like westlife and girls aloud, manufactured in the hope of setting up permanent residence in the charts and on the tv chart-shows. but of course other kinds of music wind up in the charts too. the difference is that some music is created purely with commercial success in mind (ie hoping for a high chart position) and some is not, but proves popular anyway (maybe achieving a high chart position along the way). taken in that context, where 'chart music' refers to the intent behind the music, damien rice would not fit in the 'chart music' category. the difference between credibility and popularity is that to be popular requires large numbers of people to like you, to be credible requires a smaller number of particular people to like you. these are the connoiseurs, the experts, whose opinion carries weight among others. for example, journalists, and musicians who already 'have' credibility, can bestow credibility through the media, but can't bestow popularity. popularity is fact (record sales), credibility is opinion (record reviews). i have seen a relationship between the two whereby as popularity increases, credibility decreases, which is why i asked the question: can an artist be both popular and credible? my answer would be 'no'. for the experts to retain their relevance and usefulness in music, they must keep their "opinion" barometer separate from the commercial "factual" barometer. since you can't argue with numbers, it's the opinions which change. of course, that is a bit of an oversimplification, but i think it partly explains why there is often a backlash against musicians who suddenly become much more successful/popular. as for damien rice being safe, i suppose he is, for some people. but only if you buy his music to fit in with your 'friends'. for the vast majority of those who buy it, they buy it because they like listening to it. i'm sure some people do un-chrisitian things with vegetables - should we re-lable carrots as sex-toys?
    Rev Jules
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    9/15/2004 5:20 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by jmc105
    can an artist be both popular and credible?
    Yes, they can. Bob Dylan, Radiohead, Nirvana, Johnny Cash, Ray Charles. All very credible musicians, all who continue to sell by the shedload. By the way guys, be careful about getting into an argument with each other when there is no mutual agreement on what terms such as 'chart' etc actually mean. You should all keep in mind that the requirements for a chart position differ from country to country and from chart to chart. An artist can be number one in the UK R&b charts yet not smash the top twenty in the chart broadcast on TOTP. Also bear in mind that charts do not represent actual total sales but rather sales from what are called 'return shops'. The charts are closer to polls than they are to sales figures. In some countries, the charts are not derived from sales but rather from airplay. Also bear in mind that accreditation requirements for gold and silver discs differ too. You can sell x amount of a record in Ireland and be awarded a platinum disc but sell the same amount in America and you will not even qualify for a gold there. Also, discs can be determined also by what is called 'units shipped' as opposed to 'units sold'. For those of you naive enough to believe and base arguments on official statistics for sales and chart positions I would direct y'all to a very good book about the music biz entitled 'Hitmen'.
    jmc105
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    9/15/2004 5:32 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Rev Jules
    quote:
    Originally posted by jmc105
    Originally posted by Binokular
    can an artist be both popular and credible?
    Yes, they can. Bob Dylan, Radiohead, Johnny Cash, Ray Charles. All very credible musicians, all who sell by the shedload.
    maybe i should rephrase the question - something like - can an artist go from being highly regarded but relatively obscure (like damien rice or, hopefully soon the frames) to having a much higher profile and achieving commercial successful, without losing credibility? it's not a black and white situation, but i think there's something to it... btw, sorry for not getting anything written, had a crazy week...
    karlvin
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    9/15/2004 6:03 PM
    Some good points binokular ... had to do some thinking about those. I think the fact that "charty" has a negative connotation is not just because of the way people use it but rather that of late it's content has been a reflection of lots that is negative about modern music. I agree that things are picking up , there is nothing wrong at all about creating music that is popular in fact that's the way it's been for hundreds (thousands?) of years. In fact it's why we have a chart to quantify what's popular. Yes people sometimes do take it too far but to say that it's indie or alternative types is not strictly true what's the difference between Damon Albarn saying "I make this music for me etc." and some pre-fabricated boy band attempting to convince us that they are really into songwriting and have a huge input in their music ? I agree with your point on the "ease" of songwriting and I retract that statement :-), anyone who writes with an audience in mind constantly crosses that bridge. I've nothing against R&B or dance music and most definatley not pop music. However I do have issues with the fact that currently it's hard to hear anything else on major channels or radio than R&B , and I'm not convinced that that's because the record buying public actually like it , it's more likely that some (not all) have been duped into buying this music to be hip/cool/square , take you pick by the massive marketing / media campaigns you spoke of , I'd just like to see some of that spread around , i.e. when dance music was at it's heyday (in chart sales!) it was the exact same. Perhaps this is always going to be the case but I for one am looking forward to the swings and roundabouts so that things can level out , we get an equal blend and people can then decide for themselves which genre or genres they like the best , and not necessarily at the exclusion of others. I guess one way of starting this would be to have more independent radio stations like phantom on air / with licences. phew , rant finished , I too have had too much coffee today !!!
    Binokular
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    9/15/2004 6:15 PM
    Hi JMC, was wondering when you'd show up, hows things? Yes, the term chart music has negative connotations, I'm saying it shouldn't. It reeks of elitism. Boybands and "manufactured" pop are often rubbish and bland, but that doesn't mean that they can't deliver the goods from time to time. Why be so dismissive? You know, the Sex Pistols were essentially a manufactured band, the brainchild of Malcolm Maclaren. This "ooh, they're manufactured pop" thing is rubbish, again indie kids running for the high ground. Great manufactured bands of the past: The Temptations, Jackson 5 (and much of the motown label), the Monkees, etc. Just because things seem a bit grim for manufactured pop at times is no reason to dismiss the format. You said credibility is when a "number of particular people to like you. these are the connoiseurs, the experts, whose opinion carries weight among others. for example, journalists, and musicians who already 'have' credibility, can bestow credibility through the media" Very true, I agree with you, sounds like runs the risk of being dangerously close to snobbery and elitism doesn't it? Thats not to diminish the role of the music press, hey, I write the (very) occasional review on Cluas myself so I guess that makes one of the Dark Lords Henchmen too (Eoghans gonna soooo kill me ), and it would be nice to think that someone would read one my reviews and value my opinion, but its just an opinion, same as anyone elses. So to answer your question about being credible and popular, yes they can, look at Radiohead. Eternal critics darlings (odd article excepted) and healthy record sales. I have two theories why backlashes happen. One is a journalist wants to make a name for himself and appear clever by knocking over some sacred cows, the other is that journalists get a bit bored of a partcular artist. Imagine the situation, a poor scribe sits at his desk contemplating his latest assignment "Ah nuts, the Editor wants me to do ANOTHER feature on the Frames, righto time to start a backlash so I can write about something else for the next six months"
    Binokular
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    9/15/2004 6:21 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by karlvin
    I guess one way of starting this would be to have more independent radio stations like phantom on air / with licences.
    Right on Karlvin, give radio back to the people! *falls off soapbox*
    jmc105
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    9/16/2004 12:29 AM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Binokular
    ...I have two theories why backlashes happen. One is a journalist wants to make a name for himself and appear clever by knocking over some sacred cows, the other is that journalists get a bit bored of a partcular artist...
    totally agree with your first point - i read a review of the frames single 'finally' which ripped it apart, ending with something like 'hopefully this song is bad enough to lose the frames all the recent support they've won'. it couldn't have been worse if glen hansard had run over the guy's dog while stealing his girlfriend. but then that's the problem with criticism as opposed to journalism. journalism should be fair and unbiased, but the role of the critic is to form and voice an opinion. unfortunately that opinion will always be biased, and sometimes in ways that will unfairly colour the writing. despite the exceptions mentioned (and even some of those came in for an amount of negative criticism) i still feel that, generally speaking, increased popularity harms credibility. and damaged credibility manifests itself as some kind of backlash. which is fundamentally unfair, since a cd won't change regardless of how many copies it sells. of course, a backlash is also fuelled by those who start out not really liking a band, watch them become ever more popular, listen to and read from fans going on and on about how great this band is, gradually grow to hate them and finally crack and go on the rampage on some poor innocent message-board or letters page or whatever. which i suppose is another way of popularity leading to negativity. and then in this country we have the 'who the fcuk does he think he is' mentality that sees us always secretly hoping that last night's lotto winner is a 98-year-old farmer from mayo and cursing when we see some poxy young gobs**te in the paper with champagne in one hand and a giant cheque for ridiculous euro in the other. in the end (philosophical moment approaching...) i'm glad to be able to say that i like damien rice's music. unoriginal? originality is an illusion. full of false sentiment? not for me. for me "o" is a cd i bought after witnessing some great gigs, waiting a long time and not being disappointed. it's a cd i love listening to. and in the end i'd much rather have that than not, a bit like the way you might feel for someone who doesn't like chocolate.


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