Damien Rice, the cheeky scamp!
Last Post 18 Aug 2004 10:04 AM by Binokular. 61 Replies.
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BinokularUser is Offline
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18 Aug 2004 10:04 AM
    Am I the only one who thinks its a bit cheeky that Damien Eice has released a collection of B-Sides so early in his career? Many of the tracks are only live versions of album tracks, yet it appears to be retailing at a similar price to many "proper" albums on CDWOW and Amazon. Kerr-Chiiing!!! is that the sound of his scarily enthusiastic fanbase being taken advantage of?
    mutchUser is Offline
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    18 Aug 2004 10:46 AM
    Methinks you're right, most of my mates who like, you know, what their basically told to like by mtv2 and other sources react with a kind of, "yeah i know his stuff, well i ve heard of him but who is he like?" face, i cant say im a fan at all though. he's a good business man though, fair play like he knows how to get a few bob. thats what really matters
    El DuderinoUser is Offline
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    18 Aug 2004 10:53 AM
    This release comes as no great surprise. He has already re-released his album with a few extras to squeeze an extra few sheckles out of his fan base. There's no doubt that it's good business but no one ever became a musical legend by releasing and re-releasing the same old songs. He has been around for years now and he is still only represented by his original body of work. I have to admit that I do like his music, but this whole money making buzz he seems to be on is pretty disgracefull in my opinion
    Rev JulesUser is Offline
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    18 Aug 2004 11:00 AM
    Ach ! Same manager as David Gray, same short term capitalising on a almost non existant back catalog. Gray released his 'lost songs' lp just before 'A New Day At Midnight' crashed and burned. That album should have propelled him upwards like 'Rush of Blood' did for Coldplay, instead it refused to budge from the shelves, in my neck of the woods anyway. If you ask me Rice Cakes has been taking financial advantage of his fanbase for quite some time now. Nothing new. I always feel a musician who is too good at the business end isn't that great as a musician.
    John DoeUser is Offline
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    18 Aug 2004 01:09 PM
    The more I learn about this guy the more of a w*nker he appears to be. This is the same Damien Rice who, in interview after interview, pisses and moans about how awful the music business is, all he wants to do is play music and why won't the evil capitalist overlords let him be, sometimes he just wants to work in the garden and only play his music to a few friends 'cause the industry is so SOULLESS, MAN, ad nauseum. And now this latest wa*kery. Actually, I've changed my mind, he's not just a wa*ker, he's a c**t. And you can take that to the bank. Not that we should be surprised. After all, this is the same guy who, when he was lead singer in Juniper, used to insist that people called him "Dodi Ma." Actually I've just been inspired. I think I'll start my very own website - www.damienriceisac*nt.net
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    18 Aug 2004 02:11 PM
    DODI F'N MA? OK hard drugs are the only way I'll not think he's a spoonman for that. But seriously, thats not true is it? I know nothing about the man's personality right, just never liked the tunes, too self absorbed ("cant take my eyes off of you..." sweet lord i was reduced to a snivelling wreck!). Lovely music, just not my personal thing. I like whatever's cool this month according to a mixture of Q, MTV2, The Amp, NME and,...auh, cluas.com...
    Brain of GUser is Offline
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    18 Aug 2004 02:54 PM
    I don't condone Damien Rice for what he's done but at the same time it must be said that whoever buys this b-side album deserves everything they get. I mean the list of tracks will be on the back so if you pay top money for it tough sh*t. I've never felt sorry for anyone who gets ripped off by the music industry and I'm not going to start now. If you don't like something or it's not worth its price there's a simple answer...DON'T BUY IT!!
    BinokularUser is Offline
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    18 Aug 2004 03:31 PM
    Good Point Brain of G, Caveat Emptor or something like that. However without meaning to sound patronising, I think a lot of Damien Rices' fans will be relatively young. Now don't get me wrong, todays teenagers are smarter than ever, but its at that age that its more likely that your musical attention will be devoted to a select few bands. Its these fans who are most likely to be the most dedicated, uncritical and uncynical of their favourite artist. Whether you're a fan of his music or like me really don't care for it very much, there is no doubting the sheer enthusiasm of his fans. I think Mr. Rice knows this and is cynically taking advantege of it. I mean compare it with a similar record, The Frames live album "Setlist". OK this does draw on old material too, but it was a full length release with mainly previously unreleased recordings, obviously had care put into its conception, recording, sequencing and complilation, had a much broader back catalogue to draw on and was even relatively good value for newer fans who might not have owned any albums older then "For the Birds". In short, a quality product (if I may be so crass as to use that term) that showed respect for fans of the band. Of course Damien Rice is not alone in ripping off fans, but this just seems more cynical than most.
    GarUser is Offline
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    18 Aug 2004 09:07 PM
    I bought the album because I'm a big fan of his debut 'O' and hadn't ever heard him live or any of his b-sides. I got the album for €9.99 which I thought was a fair price but saw it in Virigin for €16.99 which is a bit much. Have to admit that I like the album but for someone who hasn't released anything in so long, I think there should've been a few more b-sides thrown in. There were some very good points made. I do think that Rice is milking his fans, but alot of artists do that. Not that I'm saying its ok. Personally, I like his music but think he's a bit of a knob from the interviews I've read/saw with him. Isn't it about time he released a follow-up album? But I don't think you can compare his b-sides album with 'Setlist' by The Frames. The Frames have been knocking about for a number of years now, thus earning respect on the Irish scene (Damien Rice still has alot to prove). 'Setlist' is a live album, not a b-sides so simply the argument falls short there. But yes Rice's b-sides is out to milk his audience. I think that he will be once and for all judged on his next album.....
    BinokularUser is Offline
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    19 Aug 2004 07:55 AM
    Gar, you might be missing my point regarding "Setlist". I wasn't criticising the Frames, I was actually praising them for a well thought out quality release and contrasting it with Damien Rices shoddy effort. Yes I know "Setlist" is a live album and B-Sides is obviously a B-Sides collection, however I think comparisons can be drawn quite easily. First off, neither contains any "new" songs, both are essentially compilations of existing material. Both are designed to appeal to fans who already have all of each artists "proper" albums. You rarely make new fans with such records, however in the Frames case, it clevery appeals to those recently introduced to the band by acting as a kind of "Best of". I realise you picked up B-Sides cheap and I expect to see it clogging up the bargain section of my local record store soon, however in many places, such as CDWOW it is retailing at full price or at least is very pricey for what is essentially just an EP.
    GarUser is Offline
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    19 Aug 2004 08:39 AM
    Fair points made. I agree with ya.
    john@soundweb.ieUser is Offline
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    19 Aug 2004 08:44 AM
    i heard someone in the biz refer to him as simply "bread-head", referring to his fortright manner when it comes to the business side of things. this aint necessarily a bad thing - making a living out of original songwriting certainly aint the most lucrative practice, especially here in ireland where so many people view the decision between paying €10 into a gig or getting their 8th vodka & red bull as a major dilemma. if you dont respect yourself and position yourself accordingly, nobody else will either. but all this just doesnt sit well with the whole "shaman" persona that comes across in interviews etc. and he is prone to making some ludicrous statements (the one about how he loves spain because nobody knows him there and he can walk the streets in peace blah blah was a classic!). however, he is good although to my mind listening to "O" straight through is a bit like getting caught up in quicksand, but there are great moments in there. not enough for me to want to hear the b-sides however.
    El DuderinoUser is Offline
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    19 Aug 2004 10:45 AM
    quote:
    Originally posted by john@soundweb.ie
    all this just doesnt sit well with the whole "shaman" persona
    I think that's it in a nutshell. If he was blatantly driven by money and admitted the same or even didn't approach interviews with this holy than thou attitude, then no one could complain about him ripping the arse out of old material. The whole musical puritant thing he preaches sounds kinda contrived and when you see him releasing records like this it just confirms that he's all talk. Someone should explain to him that success and musical integrity rarely make for good bedfellows. However, a friend told me that he had just signed a contract with a record company. Could this be the reason for the release of the b-sides? It's still no defence but it could explain alot if it's true
    GarUser is Offline
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    19 Aug 2004 01:01 PM
    For anyone who is truly pissed off by the release of Damien Rice's 'B-sides' album and want to express their opinion. Why not go along to the Management Seminar in the Arthouse, Temple Bar as part of the HWCH mini festival. Bernadette Barrett (Manager of Damien Rice) will be speaking at it.
    Rev JulesUser is Offline
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    19 Aug 2004 01:27 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Gar
    For anyone who is truly pissed off by the release of Damien Rice's 'B-sides' album and want to express their opinion. Why not go along to the Management Seminar in the Arthouse, Temple Bar as part of the HWCH mini festival. Bernadette Barrett (Manager of Damien Rice) will be speaking at it.
    Why do that ? Its not her fault. She's just trying to do the best thing for her client. Look, if someone does piss off their fanbase enough, trouble will come there way. To be fair on this, if people buy the B-sides and get great enjoyment out of it then Rice has kept his faith with the listener. Gar you makes the good point that he hasn't released in quite a while. It may be that there is a view within his team that they can't wait any longer without a new release. There is also the argument that by releasing this disc separately rather than as part of a 'Special Edition' version of 'O' that Rice is being fair to his more dedicated fans and not expecting them to buy the same record twice just to get their hands on these additional tracks.
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    19 Aug 2004 02:15 PM
    I didn't mean for a gang of angry punters marching up to harass her. I just meant that they could ask her what was the reason behind releasing the b-sides, thus would end this debate/thread. Wasn't trying to single her out or anything. Sorry about the confusion. There are many ways to look at it but the fact remains that the cd is out there and people are buying it. As I said before, I think he will be judged on what comes next.
    BinokularUser is Offline
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    19 Aug 2004 02:32 PM
    Oh dear, what have I started "No Officer, I don't know anything about that large unruly mob outside..."
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    19 Aug 2004 02:54 PM
    Of course, if enough of his fans got really annoyed they could take the same course of action as a group of CREED fans took in the USA. In the words of the late, great Warren Zevon, 'Send lawyers, guns and money / The sh*t has hit the fan'.
    Brain of GUser is Offline
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    19 Aug 2004 02:55 PM
    I wonder what the unruly mob will chant. How about this: "What do we want?" "No more b-side albums from Damien Rice until he releases a new album!" "When do we want it?" "Now!" It's not very catchy is it?
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    19 Aug 2004 02:58 PM
    At least a comical take can be seen on this. I didn't mean to start a mob or anything. I'm actually writing a review of the b-sides album and will send it along to Eoghan so you can all read it on the site maybe next week.
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    19 Aug 2004 03:16 PM
    YOUR A HATE MONGER! HAHA.
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    24 Aug 2004 07:50 AM
    I actually thought the B-sides album was a great idea. I know a lot of people who are only recent converts to Damien and cannot get a hold of the original singles but still want the songs on CD. Most of the songs on the B-sides album are live favourites which feature in his setlist consistently so why not make them available on CD. The price of €9.99 seems very reasonable for what it is considering the average for a new CD in HMV can range anywhere from €16.99 to €25.99.
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    24 Aug 2004 08:40 AM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Laela
    I actually thought the B-sides album was a great idea.
    This is what Tony Clayton-Lea of the Irish Times said about the very same record, "recycled songs housed in a recycled paper CD sleeve".
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    24 Aug 2004 08:45 AM
    €9.99 is a good price, however it should be noted that that was a discounted price. It is retailing on CD WOW as a full price album. It is also number one in the Irish Album charts and therefore must be expensive enough to be regarded for consideration in the charts. I can't agree with the live favourites argument either, having a look at the track list there are only four (closer to 3 and a half) songs which did not appear on "O" in one form or another. The remaining tracks consist of two demos, an instrumental and a radio remix.
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    24 Aug 2004 01:54 PM
    "two demos, an instrumental and a radio remix". yep, in a coloured envelope. cha-ching.
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    24 Aug 2004 02:17 PM
    I guess, sifting through reponses from y'all that the overall view is that a) As a business man, Damien Rice is: b) As a musician, Damien Rice is:
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    02 Sep 2004 09:22 AM
    the b-sides collection was put together for the united states (where damien's singles have not been released) and only released in ireland due to demand from fans. i don't see how that is ripping anyone off. it also makes me laugh to see so many people label damien rice as a hypocrite and worse based on what they've read in a magazine or 'heard from a friend' - would they be so quick to trust such sources if it was someone they actually knew being insulted? so he said he likes being anonymous is spain. so he says he doesn't particularly like the music industry, despite his success. to me that just shows that damien may be too honest for his own good. personally i see all this as another example of irish people resenting those who achieve success. who does he think he is, etc etc. hence the irish times (i think) reviewer who wrote that he was "disgusted" when damien rice joined the frames onstage at marlay park, the comments below that he is 'contrived' and only interested in taking advantage of 'scarily enthusiastic' fans. anyone who visits messageboards of other irish bands will know just how much hatred there is out there for damien rice. jealousy is such a negative emotion. getting back to the b-sides debate, the fact that it has reached no. 1 in the charts (with o currently at no. 5), surely answers the question pretty conclusively.
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    02 Sep 2004 10:41 AM
    quote:
    Originally posted by jmc105
    the b-sides collection was put together for the united states (where damien's singles have not been released) and only released in ireland due to demand from fans. i don't see how that is ripping anyone off. it also makes me laugh to see so many people label damien rice as a hypocrite and worse based on what they've read in a magazine or 'heard from a friend' - would they be so quick to trust such sources if it was someone they actually knew being insulted? so he said he likes being anonymous is spain. so he says he doesn't particularly like the music industry, despite his success. to me that just shows that damien may be too honest for his own good. personally i see all this as another example of irish people resenting those who achieve success. who does he think he is, etc etc. hence the irish times (i think) reviewer who wrote that he was "disgusted" when damien rice joined the frames onstage at marlay park, the comments below that he is 'contrived' and only interested in taking advantage of 'scarily enthusiastic' fans. anyone who visits messageboards of other irish bands will know just how much hatred there is out there for damien rice. jealousy is such a negative emotion. getting back to the b-sides debate, the fact that it has reached no. 1 in the charts (with o currently at no. 5), surely answers the question pretty conclusively.
    Please, can we get over this 'The Ireland are a nation of begrudgers' every time somebody has something less than adulatory to say about a person in the public eye. It is such a lazy line of argument and takes the position that you can't have any opinion other than, 'They're greeeaaatt !'. Ireland has changed beyond recognition in the last few decades and artists no longer need to either emigrate or live in penuary in order to pursue their work, as was the case with James Joyce, so that line of attack is essentially redundant. There is no question that there are a great many fans of Damien Rice out there and I wish them well but equally there are many music lovers who dislike both his public persona and his music. His high chart position is certainly an indication of his popularity amoung a section of the listening public but it does not represent all those who listen to and/or buy music. This is the case with every established musician and Cluas exists to discuss those differing tastes so, no, the fact that he has reached number one does not prove anything conclusively other than he has reached a certain level of IRMA monitored sales. You are also incorrect in portraying Cluas as a 'message board for (another) irish band(s)'. It is nothing of the sort, being a broadbased online music site which allows for the expression of wildly divergent opinions on music, often leading to heated discussions among readers, as you yourself have proved with your posting. The critic that you mention from The Irish Times had made it clear in their numerous articles for that newspaper that they have grown to dislike the entire genre of the Irish, white, male, guitar playing singer/songwriter, of which Rice is a particularly successful example, and not per se him as an individual. I seem to remember that the Irish Times gave him a cover of 'The Ticket' recently and an indepth interview complete with photographs. Hardly the response of a publication, which you appear to suggest, resents him for his success.
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    02 Sep 2004 12:12 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Rev Jules Please, can we get over this 'The Ireland are a nation of begrudgers' ...that line of attack is essentially redundant... ...the fact that he has reached number one does not prove anything conclusively other than he has reached a certain level of IRMA monitored sales... You are also incorrect in portraying Cluas as a 'message board for (another) irish band(s)'...
    1. i disagree that the characteristic begrudgery of the irish people has somehow melted away in recent years. in my opinin it is far from a lazy argument, and just because it does not apply to you does not mean it is redundant. 2. the fact that b-sides has reached no.1 of course only proves that he has reached x amount of sales. but it is reasonable to extrapolate from the chart position of the album, and the related number of sales, that a signifigant number of people found the cd to be worth buying - surely a relevant point in the 'ripoff' debate? high inflation has made the irish people accutely aware of being ripped-off. one would presume that a rip-off cd would stay on the shelves. 3. i never suggested that cluas.com represents any particular band/bands. i just pointed out that on other messageboards, which are affiliated with particular bands, it's not unusual to see comments denouncing damien rice as the talentless, bastard, love-child of satan and rupert murdoch, or words to that effect. it's interesting that the tide of vitriol has risen in tandem with damien's success, but of course that only MIGHT suggest a certain level of begrudgery... as for the irish times, i haven't confused journalist with publication. i simply quoted one example of the over-the-top insults that are to be found more and more frequently these days. i believe in the freedom of the press, but that's not to say that every journalist is always right, or even good. i don't know if you are directly involved with cluas.com, but if so congratulations on an excellent site, long may it last.
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    02 Sep 2004 12:43 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by jmc105
    i don't know if you are directly involved with cluas.com, but if so congratulations on an excellent site, long may it last.
    Thanks for your fiery, well argued contribution. It is postings like yours which make Cluas what it is. I am one of the four moderators of the site but I can take no personal credit for its excellence. That is shared equally by the webmaster, writers, moderators, members and readers of Cluas.com Keep on posting and bear in mind that Cluas is always looking for new writers so, if you have something you want to write about, put it down and email it in to Eoghan. Yours in music Jules
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    02 Sep 2004 01:17 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by jmc105 i disagree that the characteristic begrudgery of the irish people has somehow melted away in recent years. in my opinin it is far from a lazy argument, and just because it does not apply to you does not mean it is redundant.
    No, its not a redundant argument, begrudgery has been a trait of the Irish since the days when our ancestors forgot that we really just a bunch of Vikings, Normans and people from Switzerland (celts) who had just settled on a nice little island facing the atlantic and starting calling ourselves Irish. Bizarrely however we also have a tendency as Jules says to get behind anyone who has a bit of success, I mean what other country would be chuffed about being good losers at sports? Thanks to our confused history of simultaneous begrudgery and wholesale adoration it makes it very hard for genuine criticisms to to be heard. Such criticism should not be dismissed out of a misguided sense of national pride. I believe that good balanced criticism (and acclaim when due!) is actually beneficial for any music scene. Personally I feel that a lot of the criticism of Damien Rice here is well founded and balanced. You of course are entitled to disagree with such criticism and I respect that. I do have to take exception to the idea that most peoples opinion of Damien Rice is based on what they read in magazines. That may be true to a certain extent in the broader context, but on Cluas most of our readers certainly have listened to his music first hand, either live or on record. In fact he features quite highly in the various Cluas annual readers polls.
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    02 Sep 2004 05:02 PM
    of course, criticism is vital, and while i personally rate damien rice very highly as a musician and performer, i have no problem with people expressing different views. to be fair though, most of the 'criticism' of rice (which is often far closer to insult than criticism) is based on him as a person, and unless someone knows him well or has at least met him a few times it's pretty unfair to assassinate his character based on 2nd or 3rd hand reports of what he may or may not have said or done...
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    03 Sep 2004 07:52 AM
    Yes, a lot of people have said nasty things about Damien Rice, just like they do about any figure. However that is irrelevant. This thread is about whether the new B-Sides album is a quality release or just a bit of an opportunistic below-par rip off, which I think is a fair discussion about the work of any artist. I mean its not like I accused Damien Rice of being the antichrist or something, I just said that this release was a bit cheeky. Its just a record, OK? Its not like hes pillaging and burning villages on yo ass in an Atilla the Hun stylee (though that would be sooo cooool). Other than lightening their wallet its not like hes doing anyone any permanent harm with this record (though I sometimes wonder ) As a release I reckon its pretty poor, I mean "O" has been out for two years and in that time he doesn't really have much non-album material knocking around? It does seem to suggest that he isn't very prolific as a songwriter, which isn't neccesarily a bad thing, but it does mean you shouldn't spread things too thin across too many records. I don't subscribe to the live favourites thing either, theres nothing here that hasn't been made available in some form or another before. Its not like say Joy Division who had an unrecorded gem like "love will tear us apart" knocking round in their live set while fans were dying for it to be released as a single. Oh yeah, back in those days you sometimes had singles that didn't even appear on albums! You will no doubt point out that he is saving the new material for his forthcoming album, in which case I would advise fans to give B-Sides a miss and just wait for the new album. Who knows, it might amaze us all? I always try to keep an open mind about things, but for the moment I remain unconvinced.
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    03 Sep 2004 08:37 AM
    i agree it's a fair discussion, especially when reviewers of the cd raise the same question. i just feel that if you're going to ask that question, you have to put it in the right context. b-sides was made for the us market, where damien rice has released no singles. i happened to be in the states when it came out and it was well received in terms of reviews, because for them it had a lot of new material. then, due to demand from irish fans who didn't want to pay imported-cd prices, it was released here too. so in that context i think it's unfair to say that b-sides represents a calculated effort to rip off irish fans. as for people criticising damien rice's music - well, why would i have a problem with that? what annoys me is people ripping someone's character to pieces with little or no real grounds to do so.
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    03 Sep 2004 09:55 AM
    OK sure, it was intended for the US market, but here it is now landed on our doorstep and I have to take it that context and so does our esteemed reviewer. It would be like Ford selling all its cars here in left hand drive and defending that by saying "they were originally intended for the US market". Even in the US context I still feel it represents poor value offering little that listners of "O" haven't heard already. The fact that Irish fans demanded B-Sides to be released here suggests that they are completists, but if they are completists, they already have the singles right? It doesn't even do a good job of collecting the B-sides and rarities, they're not all here. For your own sake, drop the character thing too, its getting old, fast. Leave it out, please. This discussion has nothing to do with his personal life. I understand you are fed up of what you see as constant character assasination, real or perceived, and I sympathise with that, but adopting what appears to be a siege mentality does you and the larger Damien Rice fan community no favours. Its not a case of Rice fans against the world. Not every dissenting voice has an axe to grind.
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    03 Sep 2004 03:46 PM
    Is Rice further milking things by targeting a younger audience? Or is he trying to give younger fans a chance to see him live? Damien Rice has announced details of an under-18s show at Whelan's, Dublin on the afternoon of Saturday September 18. In reverse of normal procedure, adults will not be allowed in unless accompanied by a guaranteed real teenager.Tickets go on sale from the WAV Box Office in The Village at noon on Saturday September 4 priced €20. You can also phone LO-CALL 1890 2000 78. It's a good week all round for Damo with his O and B-Sides albums at number 4 and 5 respectively in the Irish chart.
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    03 Sep 2004 04:47 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Binokular
    ...It would be like Ford selling all its cars here in left hand drive and defending that by saying "they were originally intended for the US market". ...For your own sake, drop the character thing too, its getting old, fast. Leave it out, please. This discussion has nothing to do with his personal life.
    1. no, it'd be like irish drivers asking ford to sell left-hand drive cars here, ford agreeing, then being accused of ripping off the very same drivers who asked for (and are now buying) the cars in the first place. 2. believe me, i would love to read a discussion of damien rice's music that really did have nothing to do with his personal life. i don't have a problem with it because i like his music (which i do), or because i like him as a person (i don't know him), i have a problem with it because it's wrong, unfair and pervasive. (when irish times journalists feel justified in expressing "disgust" at seeing damien rice appear onstage it's a good indication that things are getting a little out of hand...) incidentally, i'm not writing on here to do myself or anyone else any favours, and when i need advice on what views i should voice, or how i should voice them, i'll ask. and gar, are you taking the piss? please say you're taking the piss...
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    03 Sep 2004 10:45 PM
    Taking the piss about what? I pasted that news from hotpress.com
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    04 Sep 2004 07:51 AM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Gar
    Is Rice further milking things by targeting a younger audience?...
    never mind...
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    07 Sep 2004 09:18 AM
    Personally, I think he's just crap. A medicore album at best, and like all things fey and pseudo-emotional (Jim Diamond, anyone?) it caught the imagination of the middle-class coffee-table kids who buy one album a year. Worry not, it shall pass...
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    07 Sep 2004 09:41 AM
    quote:
    Originally posted by vandala
    Personally, I think he's just crap. A medicore album at best, and like all things fey and pseudo-emotional (Jim Diamond, anyone?) it caught the imagination of the middle-class coffee-table kids who buy one album a year. Worry not, it shall pass...
    Now this is something I have to strongly disagree with, "middle class coffee table kids who buy one album a year"??? I liked that album a lot but that's not all I listen to and I certainly don't buy music to put on airs and graces. How can you say it's pseudo-emotional when you don't know him? There are far too many people who feel they are owed something by musicians that release their material. Ultimately the musicians only responsiblity is to be true to themselves and from a songwriting point of view I can't fault Damien Rice for this. As far as I'm concerned Damien Rice does sing songs form the heart. If that's not your cup of tea then that's fair enough however, calling into question the man's motive behind writing the material is both presumptuous and judgemental
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    07 Sep 2004 02:17 PM
    i think the b-sides album is a great idea coz i didnt got any of his singles so i was well happy when he released it, and as for the price if you go to www.play.com its £6.99 delivered so its not damien rice thats making money out of his fans it obviously the music stores putting money on top to make money, and as for the ltd edtion cd + dvd most bands (eg westlife) release two singles one standard and one ltd edtions so the buyer buys both coz they are different and anyway you don't have to buy them most online shops give you a discription on the item and the track list so you don't have to buy it so i don't know why you are all moaning! oh and while im at it calling damien rice a tosser w**ker and a c*nt is horrible im sure you all have days when people think you are a tosser, w**ker and a c*nt it called having a bad day and being human!! So why don't you all stop moaning and and get on with your sad little lifes and while your at it go to ebay and check out all the bootlegs being sold for £10 a show now thats fans selling to fans to make money so thats worth a moan instead of moaning about something that is nothing compared to that
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    07 Sep 2004 02:46 PM
    6.99 = 10 Euro, O on the same site £9.99 (14.99 Euro). Relatively sepaking not too far off album price? Its all relative init? To be honest, I'm beginning to regret creating this thread, not because my opinion has changed much, but because I'm starting to feel like Dr. Frankenstein, staring in horror at monster he has just created (actually come to think of it, thats actually kinda cool and its pronounced FRONK-EN-STEEN ). I find it interesting that this topic has resulted in so many first posts too, which means you were irritated enough to come out of lurking and post on the boards. That should not be taken as a negative comment, quite the opposite, welcome to Cluas, I hope you'll stick around for the various other discussions on these boards. I do find the sheer passion that people have stuck up for Damien Rice with incredible, it reminds me of that guy from the Princess Pride who goes "Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father: prepare to die" and I'm afraid one of you is going to challenge me to a duel to the death, and I of course shall defend my honour in the time honoured family tradition by running away, very fast. Negative comments are made about many bands on this site but only Damien Rice and to a lesser extent The Frames provoke such a rection these days (and even the Frames fans/non-frames fans thing seems to have mellowed of late) Yes Sarah, some of us have no lives and should really find other interests besides music, spend less time in record stores/gigs, get some sunshine and fresh air. I got my quota of sunshine last weekend at electric picnic, that'll do me for another year..
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    07 Sep 2004 02:52 PM
    It's good that everybody has a passionate opinion on this matter but there's no need to verbally attack eachother. And as Binkolaur said 'Welcome to Cluas' and stick around to discuss various topics that always spring up here.
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    07 Sep 2004 06:25 PM
    El Duderino, Of course you're going to disagree with me: I was trying to be offensive. For God's sake, he's only a pop singer with one LP under his belt...which, once again, I THINK is mediocre: lyrically one-dimensional, sonically unchallenging and, all in all, derivative of a kind of song-writing that, for some reason, is particularly popular in Ireland. I don't doubt that certain people, such as yourself, get something from it: fair dues to you. However, to be shifting the kind of units he's doing at the moment, you simply have to tap into the mainstream market, and as the statistics amply show, they are the kind of people that buy an average of one album a year. You'll find Norah Jones, Buena Vista Social Club, etc. all making that list. As for not knowing him, I went to school with him. I had no interest in knowing him then and I still don't. He certainly doesn't owe me anything, and if he does, he can give it to charity. As for me not being entitled to call the record "pseudo emotional" without "knowing" him; anybody who has the audacity to write some of the clangers on that record (stones taught me how to die??? eskimos?!!?) and tries to convince us they're speaking from the heart deserves to be ridiculed. It's convincing, sure: its core, however, is both shallow and manipulative in my opinion. The "middle class coffee table kids" love that kind of thing...it makes them feel worthy without having to bother either investigating their relationship to the music or the emotions it supposedly envokes. Which, in short, is why I think it's crap.
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    07 Sep 2004 07:44 PM
    not meaning to sound rude i think you are talking a load of crap!!!!!
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    08 Sep 2004 05:16 AM
    Vandala that's cool. I can see where you are coming from now. A large portion of his fans probaly do fall in the middle class coffee table crowd. We'll have to agree to disagree about the authenticity of the emotion though
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    08 Sep 2004 07:13 AM
    I only agree with Vandala up to a point, I do think that Damien Rices work is mediocre, uninteresting and thoroughly cliched. However thats where I draw the line. I really can't agree with his points about "the mainstream" (such an outdated concept) and "middle class coffee table music". First off, yes a lot of mainstream music is really dull and yes there are a lot of folk who only buy albums that look good on their coffee table, but thats not the point. I find it silly that the term "middle class" nearly always seems to be used in a negative context when discussing music, its just inverse snobbery. Lots of great bands have both appealed to and come from the middle classes, the foremost example in my mind would be The Smiths. In fact a huge proportion of the "indie" scene is middle class, theres nothing wrong with that, in fact, it can look a bit daft when a bunch of middle class boys pretend to be something their not. Mick Jagger a "street fighting man"? yeah, right... To the genuine working class, there is nothing glamourous about the harsh reality that such underprivledged circumstances bring. Like Billie Holliday, great musicians often produce great music in spite of their circumstances, not because of them. It's also unreasonable to suggest that in order to make an albums that appeal to the masses, you have to make a dull MOR album. Yes a lot of these multi-platinum albums are pretty dull, but some of them are pretty good too. Among the biggest selling albums of all time, you will find Micheal Jacksons "Thriller", Prince "Purple Rain", AC/DC "Back in Black", the Beatles "Sgt Peppers..", etc. . Even going through the albums that could be classed as MOR, you will find albums such as Fleetwood Macs "Rumours", or the Beatles "White Album", both of which are regarded by many as great albums. The quirky and original Tychonaut are huge Fleetwood Mac fans apparently. I mean, what it is "the mainstream" anyway? who cares? If its good, its good, it doesn't matter where its coming from, it's where it's at.
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    08 Sep 2004 07:47 AM
    I don't think the concept mainstream is out of date or ever can go out of date. It's not necessarily a bad thing but it's a term to describe any music that's selling units at a particular time. You make some good points about the whole class thing being bulls**t and I agree that it should not be used against somebody. Nobody can help what set the are born into. Now I can't talk for Vandala but the reason I agreed with this point is because I see it as an observation rather than a biased point of view. An overwhelming proportion of the "diehard" Damien Rice or whatever fans do seem to come from the ranks of the middle class and it's pretty much always been the way. How else could you account for ocean colour scene's success (a few years back obviously). This whole argument really makes me wonder how long Damien Rice will be around for. It's a simple fact that the more popular a musician gets the less the original crowd that discovered them seem to like them. If the bulk of his fan base are the middle class coffee table crowd he's got about another 2 years at the top of his game at most. I personnally think he's worth more than that but all will be revealed in the near future
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    08 Sep 2004 08:17 AM
    quote:
    Originally posted by El Duderino
    Originally posted by vandala
    it caught the imagination of the middle-class coffee-table kids who buy one album a year.
    Has anyone else noticed that the lined covered cd case for 'O' can be used as a really good beermat ? It certainly keeps my coffee table free from stains.
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    08 Sep 2004 08:26 AM
    An absorbent rather than absorbing album then?
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    08 Sep 2004 08:35 AM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Binokular
    An absorbent rather than absorbing album then?
    Oh, definitely Herr Docktor !
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    08 Sep 2004 09:02 AM
    quote:
    Originally posted by vandala
    ..."stones taught me how to die???" ...The "middle class coffee table kids" love that kind of thing...it makes them feel worthy without having to bother either investigating their relationship to the music or the emotions it supposedly envokes...
    actually it was life that taught our damo to die. stones, naturally, taught him to fly. as for your sweeping generalisations about some kind of coffee-table-worshipping class of 'kids' who have a quota of one (convincing yet shallow and manipulative) album per year, i'd love to know how you carried out your research! why do these people buy albums to make themselves feel "worthy"? worthy of what? of their coffee-tables? and why do they only buy one album per year - surely if one makes them feel worthy, then ten would make them feel like some kind of supreme, all-knowing coffee-table being? and if emotions are only supposedly evoked, can they in fact be investigated? and if the blowers daughter is played in the middle of a forest and there's nobody there to hear it, does it make a sound? just for the record (no pun intended, ha ha), i think "o" is extremely interesting sonically. from the use of strings on 'amie' to the layers of sounds built up in 'cheers darlin', the operatic sweep of 'eskimo' to the simplicity of 'delicate' and 'older chests', the intricate counterpoint at the end of 'volcano' to the rawness of the hidden track 'prague', the album is consistently interesting to listen to. the sincerity of the performance is what redeems lyrics like the ones referred to in cannonball above - i wasn't surprised to learn that damien rice abandoned the idea of scheduled studio recording in favour of a mobile studio that he could use to record any given song when he felt like recording it (part of the reason for the length of time it took to produce the album). i'll also never forget the intensity of the gig i saw in dolan's a couple of years ago where damo played solo, striding onstage singing 'fool' with more anger and passion than any gig i've seen before or since and somehow maintaining that level of performance for the whole gig. shallow? pseudo-emotional? i don't think so. as for his songwriting being derivative - personally i think that simplicity is perhaps the hardest thing to convincingly achieve. there's no doubt that a song like 'delicate' is far from ground-breaking, but in my opinion that doesn't prevent it from being a truly beautiful song. vandala, if you don't like his music, that's fair enough. but your opinion of damien rice, or any other artist, is simply a statement about yourself - it can never form the basis for an assessment of anybody else's character.
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    08 Sep 2004 09:10 AM
    Ok guys, all joking aside, Cluas is looking for contributors for our new Op-Ed features section. We have already thrown out suggestions to the writers pool and are looking for both responses + fresh ideas. The discussion boards are a great place to slug things out but if one of you is able to write a coherant intelligent Op-Ed piece which is either for or against Rice then send it to me and I'll look at it for the section. Yours Jules
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    08 Sep 2004 09:20 AM
    coherence AND intelligence might be asking a bit much but... how many words would you be looking for?
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    08 Sep 2004 11:26 AM
    quote:
    Originally posted by jmc105
    coherence AND intelligence might be asking a bit much but... how many words would you be looking for?
    Dear jmc105, Have emailed you details for above to your jayboy account. best Jules
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    08 Sep 2004 02:37 PM
    jmc105 i couldnt have responded any better myself so now i will not attempt to, i shall so congratulate u on ur comments and sitback and enjoy my water i dnt like coffee!
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    08 Sep 2004 04:04 PM
    quote:
    Originally posted by El Duderino
    I don't think the concept mainstream is out of date or ever can go out of date.
    Sorry I haven't really been involved in this discussion but that little bit caught my eye. Mainstream really means absolutely nothing. It has no real connotations or any kind of defining characteristics. It's just a way of saying if somethings "popular" or not.
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    08 Sep 2004 09:35 PM
    Regarding Damien Rice's crossover into "the mainstream" it should be pointed out that of the million odd copies of O that he has shifted 700,000 of those were in the US, a nation of 250,000,000 people, it's not even gold there (here it's triple platinum so I'll accept the mainstream point for Ireland only, in the UK it went gold in the last 2 months) so to describe him as a crossover musician is in my opinion a fallacy, the parochial view might lead you to believe that but in a wider context he's simply released a very successful indie record.
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    09 Sep 2004 10:07 AM
    quote:
    Originally posted by Unicron
    Regarding Damien Rice's crossover into "the mainstream" it should be pointed out that of the million odd copies of O that he has shifted 700,000 of those were in the US, a nation of 250,000,000 people...the parochial view might lead you to believe that but in a wider context he's simply released a very successful indie record.
    The Thrills have sold a million copies of their debut too. For a counterpoint to that, Cheeky Girls did 1.4 million copies of 'Touch My Bum'. They are also regarded as an indie act. Is sales of one million the new indie theshhold
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    09 Sep 2004 10:27 AM
    I think Liberty X are indie too (V2 records), then theres Franz Ferdinand of course. Theres no real signifigance to being on an independant label (independant from what exactly?), its neither a good or a bad thing. Then theres the whole thing of continuing to refer to bands as indie despite the fact that they are now on major labels (Radiohead, Coldplay, etc.). If mainstream is a slippery concept then "indie" defies consistent definition. Unicron is right however, to point out that Damien Rices' success outside of Ireland should not be overplayed. He's big here, but still outside of the general public conciousness elsewhere.
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    09 Sep 2004 11:27 AM
    Shifting 700K albums anywhere is a tough task. I am indifferent to both The Thrills and Rice but kudos to them both - caps should be doffed to anyone who can shift enough units to not end up bankrupted by their record company. Indie in it's literal sense dies about 1987 - now it is simply a description of a music genre, same as country, pop, ballad etc.


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